A Counter For Jets/Jumps Is Needed

Please post any suggestions that could make the game more enjoyable for everyone. Feel free to also encourage Disney with praise of things you like.
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SFOne
Commodore
Posts: 102

Re: A Counter For Jets/Jumps Is Needed

Post#31 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:31 pm

If Kessen is so OP then he'd be a guaranteed win button, and by your own admission he isn't.

To use Kessen against a well constructed base requires skill - and often the penalty for failure is high. It makes NO SENSE whatsoever increase the cook time of any hero to 30 minutes. We need players to attack MORE not LESS. It is insane that it takes nearly 2 hours to train full air (which is more or less required to give a good CHANCE of success in attacking a well constructed, high level buffed imperial base).

It is simply not true that:
meds can very easily overpower SC troops, turrets, guard reserve, etc.

It just isn't. Really. Not for rebels.

You try that against a level 10 base, with level 10 heatsink on your rapids level 10 GR and high level rodian skins. At least the battle is short. The healing simply cannot keep up.

Sure, against low level buffs and against the right base it is possible to squeak out a win by spamming jets and an entire air command's worth of meds, but so what? It takes 2 hours to cook so it better give you a bloody good chance of winning a battle, and it's rarely ever 'easy'.

The problem is that you are looking purely from an imperial player's point of view. I realise there rebels on this forum guilty of doing the same from a rebel's perspective. And I fully acknowledge imperials have it hard against high level buffs too (a point quite well illustrated in Sork's Recent PVP tournament) but the imperial / rebel experience is very, very different. Quit trying to project your own experience as an imperial and pass that off as being the universal one.
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Plagueis
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1384

Re: A Counter For Jets/Jumps Is Needed

Post#32 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:22 pm

SFOne wrote:If Kessen is so OP then he'd be a guaranteed win button, and by your own admission he isn't.

To use Kessen against a well constructed base requires skill - and often the penalty for failure is high. It makes NO SENSE whatsoever increase the cook time of any hero to 30 minutes. We need players to attack MORE not LESS. It is insane that it takes nearly 2 hours to train full air (which is more or less required to give a good CHANCE of success in attacking a well constructed, high level buffed imperial base).

It is simply not true that:
meds can very easily overpower SC troops, turrets, guard reserve, etc.

It just isn't. Really. Not for rebels.

You try that against a level 10 base, with level 10 heatsink on your rapids level 10 GR and high level rodian skins. At least the battle is short. The healing simply cannot keep up.

Sure, against low level buffs and against the right base it is possible to squeak out a win by spamming jets and an entire air command's worth of meds, but so what? It takes 2 hours to cook so it better give you a bloody good chance of winning a battle, and it's rarely ever 'easy'.

The problem is that you are looking purely from an imperial player's point of view. I realise there rebels on this forum guilty of doing the same from a rebel's perspective. And I fully acknowledge imperials have it hard against high level buffs too (a point quite well illustrated in Sork's Recent PVP tournament) but the imperial / rebel experience is very, very different. Quit trying to project your own experience as an imperial and pass that off as being the universal one.


Several points.

Any hero that can instantly nulify a defensive aspect of the game is OP. Even At-Act which is widely considered “OP” can’t do that. I also think rebels should have an equal number of 5 minute heroes. Kessen shouldn’t be one of them and should have his cook time increased for both factions or have his shot nerfed. It’s true that people miss, but those misses drop radically with practice and guard reserve infantry actually present an even easier “alignment tool” than dekas due to their predicatable movement and slower speed. I wouldn’t be surprised if more people are better at kessen sniping than ever before and from person experience at least 90% of rebels who attack my base don’t miss with kessen. It’s rediculous and I actually had to move turrets outside of my base walls to deter lineups. Now many of these guys are top 50 squad members so this is obviously a factor, but this is pretty much the only attacks I see and imagine the frustration of losing your SC seconds into an attack every...single...time and then have someone tell you how hard it is to kessen shot and how many people miss. Lol, where are THOSE people? I can’t go down in HQ level to get attacked by less experienced or equipped players, so this is how it is and I’ve done what I can to counter kessen because if I don’t, I 100% will lose my SC on every defense.

Point 2. I actually have an HQ 10 bases with decent level guard reserve (8) rodian snipes (7) and nothing but lvl 10 RFTs with maxed heat sink equipment. Sounds like your nightmare as a matter of fact, But jets with medships go right through it. I’m not even talking a full load either because it’s sometimes just 1 or 2 being used. I typically have 7-8 RFTs firing into a group of healed jets at a time and the jets pretty much always come out on top. Guard reserve always gets lured somewhat so they aren’t a factor whatsoever. Maybe you’re talking about jets with lvl 3 armory skin, low level medships, or inexperienced players because that’s definitely not what I’m facing.

Point 3. Everyone with experience and the slightest hint of strategy lures guard reserve and by the time the second wave spawns I usually have 2 barracks left and 2 weak little rodians to stop 17 or more buffed jets that recieve heals at that moment. Needless to say, the two rodians don’t do &$@%. As a matter of fact, even the SC rodians don’t do much because they either get kessen sniped, tripped with an ithorian and lured or hit by a fang fighter before they can do anything. Also, using 1-2 medships to earn an 80-100% against a base with all four barracks buried deep inside the base and under shields is not squeaking out a win. It’s possible because I used to do the same thing with the same amount of t-5s but with much weaker jumps against many a rebel base after luring guard reserve and using kessen or vader to deal with the SC jets or a tie striker to deal with sullustans.

And you say my experience is not a universal one because I’m an imperial. I respectfully disagree. You do realize my base is not being attacked by other imperials and I can literally watch how rebels attack my base. They’re called replays and they show exactly how rebels do against high level turret buffs and guard reserve. Usually bad unless they bring medships. Sometimes I can see 10 or more in one day depending if I log out after each attack or not. This is how I adjust my defense to counter specific strategies which I generally do ok at against everything BUT attacks that include medships. So in a sense I probably have a better perspective than you on how hard it is for rebels at level 10 because I can see other rebel player’s attacks in my defensive replays while you would have to wait for your squad members to post replays to see the same. On the other side of the coin, you probably see more imp attack replays than me. Funny how that works.
Last edited by Plagueis on Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.


bob1084
Captain
Posts: 90

Re: A Counter For Jets/Jumps Is Needed

Post#33 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:32 pm

“Usually bad unless they bring medships”

Gosh your replies actually get dumber as you go along, just admit it.... you don’t want to lose any defense ever


Plagueis
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1384

Re: A Counter For Jets/Jumps Is Needed

Post#34 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:39 pm

bob1084 wrote:“Usually bad unless they bring medships”

Gosh your replies actually get dumber as you go along, just admit it.... you don’t want to lose any defense ever


Of course not. Do you? If so, then go ahead and turn off your armory buffs and empty your SC before you log off. Of course we ALL want to win EVERY defense. Please don’t call my replies dumb and then post easily dismissed nonsense like that.


bob1084
Captain
Posts: 90

Re: A Counter For Jets/Jumps Is Needed

Post#35 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:41 pm

Actually no I don’t want to win every defense you nitwit, bc if I do that means this game is dead


Plagueis
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1384

Re: A Counter For Jets/Jumps Is Needed

Post#36 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:04 pm

So what’s an acceptable loss rate mr. name caller? 50%? How about 90%. Because that’s pretty much my loss rate against jets + medships. This just so happens to be the main attack used by high medal count lvl 10 rebels which frequently attack my base like everyone else. And now the typical rebel attackers are starting to follow suit. I actually try to design my base to lure as many players as possible under the guise of it being easy. It’s generally not and a fair amount of the time I can get players to try to punch above their level to get the CB “cheese” and either faceplant or narrowly win without taking much loot. Common strategy and I and anyone else who wants to win on defense shouldn’t be chastised for wanting to win defenses. But is it fair that 1-2 starships can take those faceplants or narrow losses and turn them into 75-100% wins? I don’t think so. That’s my problem with it and AGAIN, I don’t care if I lose as long as legitimate skill and excellent strategy are used! I respect the skill of those players and if I’m going to lose, that player damn well better earn it. That’s how I learn how to make my defense better and some new offensive tricks too. But spamming a starship on a group of flyers doesn’t take skill or very much strategy. And so you know, we could win every defense and the game wouldn’t die. Imps would have dev bases and rebels would probably get the same OR defense would get nerfed as it did with “turret gate”.


DarkRebel
Admiral
Posts: 805

Re: A Counter For Jets/Jumps Is Needed

Post#37 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:56 pm

Plagueis wrote:So what’s an acceptable loss rate mr. name caller? 50%? How about 90%. Because that’s pretty much my loss rate against jets + medships. This just so happens to be the main attack used by high medal count lvl 10 rebels which frequently attack my base like everyone else. And now the typical rebel attackers are starting to follow suit. I actually try to design my base to lure as many players as possible under the guise of it being easy. It’s generally not and a fair amount of the time I can get players to try to punch above their level to get the CB “cheese” and either faceplant or narrowly win without taking much loot. Common strategy and I and anyone else who wants to win on defense shouldn’t be chastised for wanting to win defenses. But is it fair that 1-2 starships can take those faceplants or narrow losses and turn them into 75-100% wins? I don’t think so. That’s my problem with it and AGAIN, I don’t care if I lose as long as legitimate skill and excellent strategy are used! I respect the skill of those players and if I’m going to lose, that player damn well better earn it. That’s how I learn how to make my defense better and some new offensive tricks too. But spamming a starship on a group of flyers doesn’t take skill or very much strategy. And so you know, we could win every defense and the game wouldn’t die. Imps would have dev bases and rebels would probably get the same OR defense would get nerfed as it did with “turret gate”.

Most good IMP defense players win about 75% of their defense, and I would say that 3/4 of those are from bad-average attackers. Defense win rate for good defense player should be about 30-40% against top level attackers. Note that you don’t get attacked by top players all the time. Lots of top rebel players that I know gave up on PVP and they mostly play HD to earn frags and participate NO OP wars (those are fun).

Good players will beat you and they should. It has always been, even before the armory (and I would even say that defense was much tougher before the armory era when IMP had to either deal with HMC (man, that medic was so tough to kill), or Kessen sharp combo (90% lost percentage).

Through out my IMP experience, this is probably the easiest time to win defense. Armory (GR) made defense much easier than before.

My experience as IMP:
- Rarely got attacked on non-Tat planets. But when I got attacked, could only win 40%. Good enough though.
- On Tat, during conflict, got attacked a lot but mostly by bad-average players who couldn’t deal with rodian snipers and my buffed turrets. Good attackers could beat me, but they mostly skipped my base because they didn’t want to attack once and wait >1 hour for the air to replenish. So my win rate on Tat was about 75-80%, sometimes higher and had streak of 8-10 wins.

So defense is not over power, as >50% high level skilled rebs with air can beat you (and I think they should) and bad-average players would lose 80% of the time (because they attacked bases above their league).

I don’t have a huge problem with the offense/defense balance.

What I want to see is more load combination rather than just jumps/jets. Simply nerf jets to discourage players from attacking IS A REALLY BAD IDEA. GAME IS DEAD IF NO ONE WANTS TO ATTACK. Instead, give players more choice (i.e. mech skins) is a much better approach.


Plagueis
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1384

Re: A Counter For Jets/Jumps Is Needed

Post#38 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:42 pm

I agree with you on a lot of this DarkRebel. My defense win rate overall is on par with your 75% figure. The trend I’m seeing though is that a lot of these defensive losses aren’t simply because a player is good. It’s the fact that many players are spamming a starship or two to make up for an otherwise bad attack that would faceplant hard without tapping a single button to keep the entire attack alive through masses of defenses and are being rewarded for it. Also as you may already know, I’m pro nerf armory in general as a way to basically make other units and builds not involving jets/jumps more viable. Capping armory equipment at 30% health/damage buffs would do wonders for attack variations and skill development IMO.


bob1084
Captain
Posts: 90

Re: A Counter For Jets/Jumps Is Needed

Post#39 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:20 am

This is disgusting, winning 75% of your defenses and still you complain.

Nerf the armory to 30%? Do tell, does that include completely getting rid of the GR or do you still want that crutch too?


bob1084
Captain
Posts: 90

Re: A Counter For Jets/Jumps Is Needed

Post#40 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:21 am

And FYI that armory was at 30% but per usual, IMP whining gave way to turret buffs and the current crap show we have in this game. Thanks for that


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