Unbalanced Rebel Vehicles vs underpowered Empire vehicles: the mid-game.

General topics, questions, suggestions, bugs, or anything Star Wars Commander related.
strawman3125
Admiral
Posts: 925

Re: Unbalanced Rebel Vehicles vs underpowered Empire vehicles: the mid-game.

Post#21 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:09 am

DarkRebel wrote:
Oldrebel wrote:
DarthStrutter wrote: I do know the rebel TX is stronger than the imperial TX.

Wrong... Imp TX has better health and damage, and two tiles more range.


Lets look at the numbers.

Assuming L10

IMP 2-M hover tank:
UC : 10
DPS : 2101
Health: 42000
DPS/UC : 210
Health/UC : 4200
Range: 8

Rebel AAT1 Hover
UC : 9
DPS : 1908
Health : 40500
DPS/UC : 212
Health/UC : 4500
Range : 6

The units are very comparable. No clear cut winner here.
DPS/UC is about the same.
Rebel has slightly better health/UC, but lacks in range. Makes sense. More health is needed as the unit takes more damage before getting into shooting range.

This is again the case when the grass appears greener on the other side.
A rebel player claimed IMP unit was better.
An IMP player claimed rebel unit was better.

Lesson learned: don’t listen to single faction player as their view is often biased. LOL.


I prefer the Rebel version of the tanks!

The Range of 6 keeps them just ahead of the Jets meaning that they take the Burst turret fire and keep the Jets safe where the Imperial tanks let the Jumps move ahead of them and die. The higher health/UC becomes a huge advantage using them like this.

What some see as a disadvantage, I see as an advantage.


strawman3125
Admiral
Posts: 925

Re: Unbalanced Rebel Vehicles vs underpowered Empire vehicles: the mid-game.

Post#22 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:23 am

DarkRebel wrote:
Oldrebel wrote:
DarkRebel wrote:
Lets look at the numbers.

Assuming L10

IMP 2-M hover tank:
UC : 10
DPS : 2101
Health: 42000
DPS/UC : 210
Health/UC : 4200
Range: 8

Rebel AAT1 Hover
UC : 9
DPS : 1908
Health : 40500
DPS/UC : 212
Health/UC : 4500
Range : 6

The units are very comparable. No clear cut winner here.
DPS/UC is about the same.
Rebel has slightly better health/UC, but lacks in range. Makes sense. More health is needed as the unit takes more damage before getting into shooting range.

So... look at the last statement I quoted, in bold. Reality is opposite.
UC difference is insignificant here, as is health/UC or DPS/UC.
Health/UC means squat when the thing has to get within 6 tiles of turrets that have a range of 9 or more. Your turrets are hitting my TX while it is still moving the last 3 or 4 tiles. My turrets are hitting your TX within 1 or 2 tiles of movement. That's a huge difference at slow speed, with obstacles. Rebel unit takes way more damage before doing anything.
From your figures:
Imp: 42000 health, range 8
Reb: 40500 health, range 6

But, you are quoting unskinned stats.
Let's compare samples, which are usable in war:
Imp: 67200 health, 8240 dps, range 8.
Reb: 64800 health, 7487 dps, range 6.

Imps get equal jets, even though rebel infantry was always intended to be better. Imp "stolen" vehicles are equal to Reb vehicles. But, in most/all cases, Rebel "stolen" vehicles are inferior.
I WANT faction differences, it makes for challenges and interesting game play. Just boosting jets because of the current meta is farcical, especially being slapped in the face with turret differences.
Then there is the hero AT-TE... Not an option for most Rebs, since frags are non-existant. Hero AT-AT upgradeable via credits. That's why one is used in pretty much every war replay I've ever seen, along with a couple of shield bombers, to take out the squad center. The juggernaut is usually not a great option, in this case the additional speed coupled with less range means it's not as effective and trips defense.

Is it that difficult to understand that you can’t simply compare units without considering their UC ?
You whined about eATTE frags. Same thing for astromedic. Bet you didn’t know this.

I play both factions. I don’t believe that you do.

There is actually an imbalance in the game, favoring IMP at the moment. I play both sides. I know.

IMP has 2 key advantages.
- Conflict advantage due to dev base availability. This results in IMP players, in general, accumulate frags faster than rebels. Today game is all about armory skin/frags, so having higher level skin or unlock/level up key units can be a significant advantage in PVP.
- IMP heroes with skins are generally better than rebels.

The other unit differences are minor. Other than the 2 key areas above, the balance is actually pretty good. Not worth whining about.


If you play both factions, I do not see how you can come to this conclusion...

You can look at all the raw stats and theorize all you want but that is not what the actual experience is.

Even after this Imperial Jump bug fix my (Identical) Rebel account is capable of generating 20% more Gears/Hour than my Imperial account, giving the Rebels a significant (~20%) advantage in conflicts. The numbers that I am seeing, and have been seeing for more than a year, are not based on paper stats and theories or one off scenarios where you pick and choose one or two units to focus on, but the whole picture, everything included from the start of conflicts to the ends of conflicts, including unit strengths, builds times, the number of 3 stars vs 2 stars, plants, availability of dev bases, everything.

I really don’t think that the factional imbalance is so great that anything needs to be changed, but if changes were made, they should favour the Imperials rather than the Rebels.

(I make no claims to know about game balance in wars since almost all wars these days end in 45/45 draws.)


DarthStrutter
Commander
Posts: 30

Re: Unbalanced Rebel Vehicles vs underpowered Empire vehicles: the mid-game.

Post#23 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:26 pm

lukeskywalker wrote:
DarthStrutter wrote:
Shelendil wrote:Here's another thread full of misinformation.

The AT-AP shoots 4 times and takes 10 UC.
The AT-MP shoots 6 times and takes 15 UC.
The dps per unit capacity is virtually identical (373 vs 372).

The AAT and 2-M also have almost identical dps per UC (219 vs 226), but the 2-M has 2 more range, which is a very significant advantage.

Wherever you're getting your facts from is wrong.



Things have never been equal. Rebels have super jets and imperials had sniper GR until the rebels complained and now have sharpie GR as well. The point the guy is making is imperials are supposed to have the better vehicles and he claims we do not. I do know the rebel TX is stronger than the imperial TX. At least Zynga has fixed the jumps. But the point is there were differences but there was also balance. Now since the rebels have complained twice they now more advantages than the imperials, that's another point.


Just curious, do you have both rebel and Imperial bases? Quoting stats for specific units is not really meaningful IMO, especially when quoting just some of the stats. I have bases in both factions, and I just don't see a difference. If there's one unit that jumps out at me a bit, it's the skinned MHC on Hoth for Imperial bases. Been on both sides of that one. That said, it's one planet and one unit and MHC's are awfully slow. If you do have bases in both factions, have you really experienced a difference? If you don't have bases in both factions, IMO the stats are not the be all end all gauge, once you experience actual game play in both factions. The AI and other factors are really what comes into play in PvP and wars. As the others have said, you learn the units pro's and con's and adjust. The end result is a good base in either faction wins, with very similar end results.




Yes the MHC is stronger one on one but the MHC is 12 units to the Hails 7 units. Minus 2 troops you can use 2 Hails to 1 MHC which does give an advantage to Rebels in that aspect. Also 3 MHC plus 6 units in sc vs 6 Hails in sc. Still a nice advantage for Rebels. And no i don't have a base with each faction but i know what i see. There are definitely hero advantages for the Imps but there are unit advantages for the Rebels. Rebels can drop more troops and that also helps in no op wars. But if you don't have a good plan of attack more troops doesn't mean much. Lol


DarthStrutter
Commander
Posts: 30

Re: Unbalanced Rebel Vehicles vs underpowered Empire vehicles: the mid-game.

Post#24 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:29 pm

Oldrebel wrote:
DarthStrutter wrote: I do know the rebel TX is stronger than the imperial TX.

Wrong... Imp TX has better health and damage, and two tiles more range.



When i wrote the numbers down from papajessie i was at work and i must have gotten them backwards. Just rechecked and you are correct. My error


Oldrebel
Captain
Posts: 79

Re: Unbalanced Rebel Vehicles vs underpowered Empire vehicles: the mid-game.

Post#25 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:49 pm

DarthStrutter wrote:Yes the MHC is stronger one on one but the MHC is 12 units to the Hails 7 units. Minus 2 troops you can use 2 Hails to 1 MHC which does give an advantage to Rebels in that aspect. Also 3 MHC plus 6 units in sc vs 6 Hails in sc. Still a nice advantage for Rebels. And no i don't have a base with each faction but i know what i see. There are definitely hero advantages for the Imps but there are unit advantages for the Rebels. Rebels can drop more troops and that also helps in no op wars. But if you don't have a good plan of attack more troops doesn't mean much. Lol


Two hailfires do 5% more damage than 1 MHC, at a cost of 2 additional UC.
However, it would take 3.85 hailfires to have the same health as just one MHC.
Simply put, MHCs last much longer in battle, hailfires are made of paper. Add a repair droid and MHCs just keep going, can't heal hails at a fast enough rate because they are simply too fragile.


User avatar
lukeskywalker
Admiral
Posts: 516

Re: Unbalanced Rebel Vehicles vs underpowered Empire vehicles: the mid-game.

Post#26 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:30 pm

DarthStrutter wrote:
lukeskywalker wrote:
DarthStrutter wrote:

Things have never been equal. Rebels have super jets and imperials had sniper GR until the rebels complained and now have sharpie GR as well. The point the guy is making is imperials are supposed to have the better vehicles and he claims we do not. I do know the rebel TX is stronger than the imperial TX. At least Zynga has fixed the jumps. But the point is there were differences but there was also balance. Now since the rebels have complained twice they now more advantages than the imperials, that's another point.


Just curious, do you have both rebel and Imperial bases? Quoting stats for specific units is not really meaningful IMO, especially when quoting just some of the stats. I have bases in both factions, and I just don't see a difference. If there's one unit that jumps out at me a bit, it's the skinned MHC on Hoth for Imperial bases. Been on both sides of that one. That said, it's one planet and one unit and MHC's are awfully slow. If you do have bases in both factions, have you really experienced a difference? If you don't have bases in both factions, IMO the stats are not the be all end all gauge, once you experience actual game play in both factions. The AI and other factors are really what comes into play in PvP and wars. As the others have said, you learn the units pro's and con's and adjust. The end result is a good base in either faction wins, with very similar end results.




Yes the MHC is stronger one on one but the MHC is 12 units to the Hails 7 units. Minus 2 troops you can use 2 Hails to 1 MHC which does give an advantage to Rebels in that aspect. Also 3 MHC plus 6 units in sc vs 6 Hails in sc. Still a nice advantage for Rebels. And no i don't have a base with each faction but i know what i see. There are definitely hero advantages for the Imps but there are unit advantages for the Rebels. Rebels can drop more troops and that also helps in no op wars. But if you don't have a good plan of attack more troops doesn't mean much. Lol


Darth,

I have bases in both factions. Same amount of effort to UC in both factions for me. I don't feel any differences overall. Just adjustments in attack strategies based on certain unique units like MHC's and Hails. Jets/Jumps, MTT's, ITT's/A5's, Vans/Shocks, etc. are all basically the same. Heroes slightly stronger for Imperial bases, but troops slightly stronger for rebs. End result, the same. MHC is superior to a Hail, even adjusting for uc. I don't think there's a question there. That doesn't mean Imp's have it easier. There are trade-offs for both factions.

I cycle through all of my bases during certain events/conflicts. The total UC points are basically the same at the end of the events/conflicts. I can see some players preferring one faction over another, if it suits their attack styles better, but that's a fit issue and not a real issue. Other players who have bases in both factions can chime in with their experiences. I started my Imp bases to learn the AI better on both sides from a different perspective. It also addressed the "which faction is better" debate for me on a real level. Answer, neither, except for which uniform you want to "wear".
lukeskywalker
Leader
Squad: onewiththeforce
Squad Level: 50

We are always looking for active players. We have a squad of 20+ members, and we war at least once a week. We have maxed out our Perks. We like helping new players, so all players are welcome!


Oldrebel
Captain
Posts: 79

Re: Unbalanced Rebel Vehicles vs underpowered Empire vehicles: the mid-game.

Post#27 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:42 pm

DarkRebel wrote:Is it that difficult to understand that you can’t simply compare units without considering their UC ?
You whined about eATTE frags. Same thing for astromedic. Bet you didn’t know this.

Is it that difficult to understand that even with higher "health/UC", my TX will die long before yours because of lower range? Oh, but I get that one extra rebel soldier to shield my tank. Lol.

Yes, I know you need frags for astromedic - we need frags for WEDs. Balance.
You get your long-range shield buster with credits, we don't. Imbalance.
You get Kessen, we get Kessen. Balance.
"Health/UC" - MHC=2916, hail=1296. Imbalance.

Go check stats: our stolen AT-AT, stolen MHC, stolen AT-DP, etc - all inferior, same UC.
Compare to your seized rebel vehicles - same exact stats as rebel version.


DarkRebel
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1391

Re: Unbalanced Rebel Vehicles vs underpowered Empire vehicles: the mid-game.

Post#28 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:46 pm

lukeskywalker wrote:
DarthStrutter wrote:
lukeskywalker wrote:
Just curious, do you have both rebel and Imperial bases? Quoting stats for specific units is not really meaningful IMO, especially when quoting just some of the stats. I have bases in both factions, and I just don't see a difference. If there's one unit that jumps out at me a bit, it's the skinned MHC on Hoth for Imperial bases. Been on both sides of that one. That said, it's one planet and one unit and MHC's are awfully slow. If you do have bases in both factions, have you really experienced a difference? If you don't have bases in both factions, IMO the stats are not the be all end all gauge, once you experience actual game play in both factions. The AI and other factors are really what comes into play in PvP and wars. As the others have said, you learn the units pro's and con's and adjust. The end result is a good base in either faction wins, with very similar end results.




Yes the MHC is stronger one on one but the MHC is 12 units to the Hails 7 units. Minus 2 troops you can use 2 Hails to 1 MHC which does give an advantage to Rebels in that aspect. Also 3 MHC plus 6 units in sc vs 6 Hails in sc. Still a nice advantage for Rebels. And no i don't have a base with each faction but i know what i see. There are definitely hero advantages for the Imps but there are unit advantages for the Rebels. Rebels can drop more troops and that also helps in no op wars. But if you don't have a good plan of attack more troops doesn't mean much. Lol


Darth,

I have bases in both factions. Same amount of effort to UC in both factions for me. I don't feel any differences overall. Just adjustments in attack strategies based on certain unique units like MHC's and Hails. Jets/Jumps, MTT's, ITT's/A5's, Vans/Shocks, etc. are all basically the same. Heroes slightly stronger for Imperial bases, but troops slightly stronger for rebs. End result, the same. MHC is superior to a Hail, even adjusting for uc. I don't think there's a question there. That doesn't mean Imp's have it easier. There are trade-offs for both factions.

I cycle through all of my bases during certain events/conflicts. The total UC points are basically the same at the end of the events/conflicts. I can see some players preferring one faction over another, if it suits their attack styles better, but that's a fit issue and not a real issue. Other players who have bases in both factions can chime in with their experiences. I started my Imp bases to learn the AI better on both sides from a different perspective. It also addressed the "which faction is better" debate for me on a real level. Answer, neither, except for which uniform you want to "wear".

Well said LSW.


DarkRebel
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1391

Re: Unbalanced Rebel Vehicles vs underpowered Empire vehicles: the mid-game.

Post#29 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:00 pm

Oldrebel wrote:
DarkRebel wrote:Is it that difficult to understand that you can’t simply compare units without considering their UC ?
You whined about eATTE frags. Same thing for astromedic. Bet you didn’t know this.

Is it that difficult to understand that even with higher "health/UC", my TX will die long before yours because of lower range? Oh, but I get that one extra rebel soldier to shield my tank. Lol.

Yes, I know you need frags for astromedic - we need frags for WEDs. Balance.
You get your long-range shield buster with credits, we don't. Imbalance.
You get Kessen, we get Kessen. Balance.
"Health/UC" - MHC=2916, hail=1296. Imbalance.

Go check stats: our stolen AT-AT, stolen MHC, stolen AT-DP, etc - all inferior, same UC.
Compare to your seized rebel vehicles - same exact stats as rebel version.

I used to think IMP had all the advantages, until I opened an IMP account and became dual faction player.
As rebels, I’ve always wanted eATAT like hero, but after I got it, I still prefer Kessen (SC nullifying ability) and .., Luke. The main reason is the speed. eATTE is just too slow compared ro other rebs units and end up trailing the line. same thing when I used stolen MHC. eATTE does make sniping SC easier, but good Kessen players don’t need it.
I like both factions. I like rebel speed and agility. I like IMP positioning and timing.
Player playing on one faction often thinks their faction is at an disadvantage and needed to use skills to compensate.
This is going to be my last reply to you as I find this discussion boring. I did this 4 year ago against an IMP player called ... Gourmet. Bet old timers still remember that name :)


User avatar
lukeskywalker
Admiral
Posts: 516

Re: Unbalanced Rebel Vehicles vs underpowered Empire vehicles: the mid-game.

Post#30 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:05 pm

DarkRebel wrote:[cut]
I like both factions. I like rebel speed and agility. I like IMP positioning and timing.
[/cut]


If there's a generalization to be made, this one hits the nail square on the head.
lukeskywalker
Leader
Squad: onewiththeforce
Squad Level: 50

We are always looking for active players. We have a squad of 20+ members, and we war at least once a week. We have maxed out our Perks. We like helping new players, so all players are welcome!


Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot], Dealer, Facebook [Bot], Forceisweaknyou, Hrochoun, MSN [Bot] and 33 guests