Medal Dumpers Report - Discussion Topic

General topics, questions, suggestions, bugs, or anything Star Wars Commander related.
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lukeskywalker
Admiral
Posts: 580

Re: Medal Dumpers Report - Discussion Topic

Post#41 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:24 pm

This is a tricky one. I agree that the factor for medals needs to be nerfed or replaced. The medal adjustment is too great right now. However, there is a good reason for some type of adjustment for playing time (experience, frag accumulation, etc.). There are always two sides of a coin. The player saying they are getting "fair" match-ups on attacks really mean they are getting bases they can 3 star without air support, that provide some degree of challenge. I'm pretty sure the person that just took the beating does not necessarily see that as a "fair" match-up. There's always someone who loses in each battle. Players seem to want defense to matter, but for that to happen, it means attacks get a lot tougher. That draws complaints. Vicious cycle.

As far as options go, player rank makes sense to some degree, since you can't manipulate it easily, although players could just start new bases with hindsight knowledge of what frags are important and then only focus on events and conflicts that have those frags available. That would slow down rank advancement, while getting maximum bang for the buck in terms of frag accumulation. Another option would be a secondary base score based on armory levels instead of medals, with Jets/Jumps, guard reserve, MTT's, ITT's/A5's all getting higher points than other units much like turrets and traps. All that said, the impact on Zynga's wallet will dictate whether something like this happens. Is there a way to adjust matchmaking, that does not negatively impact income? This competition, the game within the game, is what spurs spending.

The only other option that comes to mind is to really reward event and conflict points based on true level of difficulty of the opponent. Each base would need to be properly graded out, so an extremely tough base might give 8x to 10x the points vs. a low level dev base as an example. The factor would be based on the time differential in reload/cook times needed to face such a base and the fact that you might only walk away with 1 or 2 star wins. Maybe equate a 2 star win against those high level bases with enough points, to make the trade-off from attacking 6-8 dev bases that you could finish in the same 2 hour or 2 1/2 hour reload period. It does mean that the game could become somewhat unplayable if you just attack high level bases. That type of wait time is boring and the reason why so many of us have additional bases to fill in the down time. The profitability to Zynga again would also be the ultimate factor in whether such a move could be made.
Last edited by lukeskywalker on Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lukeskywalker
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DarkRebel
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1424

Re: Medal Dumpers Report - Discussion Topic

Post#42 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:17 pm

I am not objecting to take medal count into account for match making logic, just not at the same degree as it is right now.
And I totally agree that getting 3 star on every bases easily during PVP isn't exactly "fair" either.
Risk/reward is another thing that needs to be adjusted when hitting real bases versus dev cloned bases.


strawman3125
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1017

Re: Medal Dumpers Report - Discussion Topic

Post#43 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:53 pm

lukeskywalker wrote:This is a tricky one. I agree that the factor for medals needs to be nerfed or replaced. The medal adjustment is too great right now. However, there is a good reason for some type of adjustment for playing time (experience, frag accumulation, etc.). There are always two sides of a coin. The player saying they are getting "fair" match-ups on attacks really mean they are getting bases they can 3 star without air support, that provide some degree of challenge. I'm pretty sure the person that just took the beating does not necessarily see that as a "fair" match-up. There's always someone who loses in each battle. Players seem to want defense to matter, but for that to happen, it means attacks get a lot tougher. That draws complaints. Vicious cycle.

As far as options go, player rank makes sense to some degree, since you can't manipulate it easily, although players could just start new bases with hindsight knowledge of what frags are important and then only focus on events and conflicts that have those frags available. That would slow down rank advancement, while getting maximum bang for the buck in terms of frag accumulation. Another option would be a secondary base score based on armory levels instead of medals, with Jets/Jumps, guard reserve, MTT's, ITT's/A5's all getting higher points than other units much like turrets and traps. All that said, the impact on Zynga's wallet will dictate whether something like this happens. Is there a way to adjust matchmaking, that does not negatively impact income? This competition, the game within the game, is what spurs spending.

The only other option that comes to mind is to really reward event and conflict points based on true level of difficulty of the opponent. Each base would need to be properly graded out, so an extremely tough base might give 8x to 10x the points vs. a low level dev base as an example. The factor would be based on the time differential in reload/cook times needed to face such a base and the fact that you might only walk away with 1 or 2 star wins. Maybe equate a 2 star win against those high level bases with enough points, to make the trade-off from attacking 6-8 dev bases that you could finish in the same 2 hour or 2 1/2 hour reload period. It does mean that the game could become somewhat unplayable if you just attack high level bases. That type of wait time is boring and the reason why so many of us have additional bases to fill in the down time. The profitability to Zynga again would also be the ultimate factor in whether such a move could be made.


I don’t think there is a problem that needs to be fixed here.

If a player wants to spend the time medal dumping and they enjoy playing more that way, let them. If a player prefers to be maxed out and enjoys playing that way, they can.

If the devs were to try to change things I would suggest that they start by making a decision as to how the game should be played and make it consistently work like that. Right now they have two very different ideas that conflict with each other:
1. They are trying to match players with bases that are challenging form them (Similar strength/skill) and at Prestige level, given the current offence vs defence balance, that means that getting 3-stars is challenging, with 1-2 star being more normal.
BUT
2. Events require between 80 and 120 3 star wins (or 160-240 2 star wins or even more 3 star wins) to complete. In order to be able to accomplish this goal, you need to be able to get quick and easy 3 star wins.

- If they achieve a perfect matching algorithm, fixing medals, making dev bases have the same power as player bases and closing off all loopholes for everyone, with no changes to the offence vs defence balance, then almost no one would be able to complete events.

The devs should decide what the average PvP outcome should be and make the rest of the game reflect that. If they decides that PvP with equal skill/strength opponents should be 1.75 stars then they should make it so that Events can be finished by the average player while only getting 1.75 stars per win, taking into account the time required to get those wins. Once they have figured out how the game objectives work then they can start to do things like: making sure that the offence vs defence power makes the decided upon outcome happen, fix the matching algorithm, close all holes down, make dev bases the same difficulty as player bases, etc.

It would be a lot of work for them to implement all of these changes and ‘fix’ everything but why bother when they have a two tiered system that ‘works’ for the most part and players can simply choose how they want to play.


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MachineHead
Commodore
Posts: 136

Re: Medal Dumpers Report - Discussion Topic

Post#44 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:02 am

Dear DS, thank you for this nice experiment and the impressing results.

I wanna also add an expierence:

My Level 6 account (High BaseScore) had a lot of Trouble to get enought contraband with a medal count from 1 to 200...After increasing it to 2000-3000 i was lucky and find a lot contraband everywhere...

Bases are much stronger there and skinned with Turret+ and some guard reserve, but my droideka is builded now...
mySquad: closed
myAccounts: MachineHead(11), Bulldozer(10), NineInchNails(9), Ministry(9), lol(6)


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mkenobi
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1883

Re: Medal Dumpers Report - Discussion Topic

Post#45 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:01 am

I agree with @Strawman. As it is today, no one has more control over a base than the player himself. You are directly responsible for the failure or success of your base, devs only give you the tools you need. Learn how to use them, and mainly understand how number of medals and base score work in the game.

I think the big challenge of the game is to have a multi task base, which is difficult but not impossible. A base that is competitive in conflicts, efficient in winning heroic defenses and surviving war attacks. To start, build your base keeping in mind how you intend to play and what you intend to do in the game. I have two points that I use in my bases:

1) If you don't want to dump medals, but want to play to improve your Armory and attack in PvP for conflicts and Events, don't max out your base. Build a sandbagging base, or even a mini with 2 turrets level 1, no traps, anything else that is not for improve your attack, and keep winning medals to raise their number as much as possible. The high number of medals will compensate your low base score and soon you will fight stronger rivals, some above your level, others with great score for conflicts and high loot. If rivals become too hard, drop medals.

2) If you don't care for medals, but want to have a strong base to play Squad Wars, and a good challenge in PvP and be competitive in conflicts, you should max out your base, but keep your number of medals always low, if possible with 1 medal, and the low medal score will compensate the high score for your base. You will get strong rivals but not killer beasts, good loot, high points in conflicts and have a base that can survive war attacks.

In short:

Sandbagging/mini bases with low number of medals/low base score will get only poor loot/low score/weak bases.
Maxed out bases with high number of medals/high base score will get only high loot/high score/stronger-monster bases
SWC Windows survivor.

Imperial HQ 11 & Rebel HQ 11 on vacation. Currently in "Giveandgettroops" (Level 50 Imperial Squad) and "SevenOfNine2" Level 50 Rebel Squad -- training squads, everyone is welcome!


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GlockShanty
Commander
Posts: 45

Re: Medal Dumpers Report - Discussion Topic

Post#46 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:37 pm

I got "medal dumped" twice in the last several days.

Both times by "Solar" of Death_Striker.

One of yours, DS? :D
Playing since August 2014


DarkRebel
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1424

Re: Medal Dumpers Report - Discussion Topic

Post#47 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:16 pm

I strongly disagree with the sandbagging concept, to intentionally game the system to fight against opponent lower than you in both base development and skill level.

It’s like a heavy weight class boxer fights in lower weight class.

The main issue with the game is that medal count is weighed too much into match making algorithm and that should be adjusted. Every player should be matched with opponents equivalent to them in PVP, not lower, not higher, but equivalent.

If you are not a good player, then your medal count should be low, and you should lose medals naturally. Low medal players should only be matched against other low medal players, but within equivalent base and troop level.

If you are a good player, then your medal count should be high and you should gain medals naturally, because you win more than you lose. High medal players should be matched against other high medal players.

It is ridiculous for high level players to sandbag their bases to intentionally fight against lower level opponents (either base/troop level or skill level) then dump medals to intentionally keep picking on the youngsters.

The goal of match making, and the game in general, is to match players with other equivalent players. Not more, not less, but equivalent.

Sandbagging works because of the flaw in the system. Lets just close the loopholes, so sandbagging won’t work and everyone can compete fairly.

In PVP, one personal’s sandbagging the system means someone else suffers because they fight against opponents that are higher than them in either base/troop level and/or skill level, and that is not fair for them.

An indication of a working system is that players will eventually (and naturally) get to a point where their medal counts stay at where their true skill levels are. Then their medal counts will only fluctuate around that mark, and only when they improve their skills that their medal counts increase further.

This is how medal is supposed to work.


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DeathStriker
Moderator
Posts: 6775

Re: Medal Dumpers Report - Discussion Topic

Post#48 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:46 pm

GlockShanty wrote:I got "medal dumped" twice in the last several days. Both times by "Solar" of Death_Striker. One of yours, DS? :D

GlockShanty - Solar is one of my Squadmates but not one of my Accounts.

DarkRebel wrote:The goal of match making, and the game in general, is to match players with other equivalent players. Not more, not less, but equivalent.

My HQ 8 Accounts after dumping Medals down to 1 both see HQ 7 thru HQ 9 Bases with my HQ 8 (Mini) seeing some HQ 6's and lower Level HQ 9's

:arrow: Dumping Medals has effectively enable both my HQ 8's to see "equivalent players", that is, see Players within a "reasonable Range" based upon my HQ Level of 8 for both of those Accounts.
 
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DarkRebel
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1424

Re: Medal Dumpers Report - Discussion Topic

Post#49 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:48 pm

DS, I understand players dumping medals to workaround the issue of mismatch caused by the current system. All I am saying is lets fix the system so that players don’t have to drop medals to get a fair match.

EDIT:

Boxers are matched based on 2 things: (1) their weight class, and (2) their ranking.
In SWC, weight class equivalence is the base rating and troop level, and ranking equivalence is medal count.
Players should be matched first based on base rating (class), then within the same class, matched based on medal count (ranking)
Last edited by DeathStriker on Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Combined Back-to-Back Posts - Added "Edit"


User avatar
CoolGuy
Admiral
Posts: 810

Re: Medal Dumpers Report - Discussion Topic

Post#50 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:07 pm

DarkRebel wrote:DS, I understand players dumping medals to workaround the issue of mismatch caused by the current system. All I am saying is lets fix the system so that players don’t have to drop medals to get a fair match.

EDIT:

Boxers are matched based on 2 things: (1) their weight class, and (2) their ranking.
In SWC, weight class equivalence is the base rating and troop level, and ranking equivalence is medal count.
Players should be matched first based on base rating (class), then within the same class, matched based on medal count (ranking)

Pretty sure when Zynga took over we did a survey for them telling them what needed fixing - this topic was one of many issues. How many have they fixed? I think the answer is zero. They are not going to waste money fixing a game which will probably be shut down in less than a year. We just have to play it for what it is.
Windows refugee with the Rogue Ewok group. Killing the Empire since 2015.
Come and visit us at RogueEwokReturn


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