Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

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Werowe4
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#21 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:45 am

DarkRebel wrote:
Werowe4 wrote:
lukeskywalker wrote:This thread does bring up a big question though. We all brought up things Marvel has done well, but not all of the movies in their 10+ year arch were home runs. They bought enough good will at some point, for fans to forgive the occasional average movie, and there was enough connectivity that you wanted to see the films for what they would tell you about the rest of the arch.

For Star Wars, I am a fan of the original trilogy. It lost me at the prequel trilogy. The casting choices were weak in my opinion, and while I continued to watch the movies to follow, I was never as invested as when I saw the original trilogy. The Last Jedi renewed my interest, so that was a long time in between where my interest was luke warm. Pun intended. I also realize that Last Jedi was pretty divisive, so while it drew me back in a bit, it may also have turned a lot of people off. As mkenobi pointed out though, Star Wars still rakes in money, so the term falters is relative.

Two things: (1) while the prequels weren’t done well film wise, I do like/appreciate them for the expanded universe information they bring (which allowed for clone wars/rebels and legends); (2) as for SW raking in money, didn’t TLJ tank in China and Solo result in a net loss?

I got curious so I Google on it:
According to this one article, TLJ made over 400 million dollars. So it DID make money.
https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment ... much-money

And according this this article “($214 million domestic and $393m worldwide on a $275m budget)”, SOLO likely broke even if taking into account marketing expense, or gain a small amount of money depending on how much they spent on marketing. Typical marketing budget for blockbuster is around 100-150 millions, and assuming the studio takes in 60% of ticket sales (360M), and maybe 20M on DVD, bluray sales.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmende ... 5a0abb42b8

Both are considered huge flop compared to the expectations though.

Lol, who buys DVD’s and Blu-ray’s anymore? In South America, there still is heavy DVD use but almost all of it is pirated (even the blockbusters - yes those still exist somewhat down there - are renting out pirated DVD’s half the time).
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DarkRebel
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#22 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:33 am

Werowe4 wrote:
DarkRebel wrote:
Werowe4 wrote:Two things: (1) while the prequels weren’t done well film wise, I do like/appreciate them for the expanded universe information they bring (which allowed for clone wars/rebels and legends); (2) as for SW raking in money, didn’t TLJ tank in China and Solo result in a net loss?

I got curious so I Google on it:
According to this one article, TLJ made over 400 million dollars. So it DID make money.
https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment ... much-money

And according this this article “($214 million domestic and $393m worldwide on a $275m budget)”, SOLO likely broke even if taking into account marketing expense, or gain a small amount of money depending on how much they spent on marketing. Typical marketing budget for blockbuster is around 100-150 millions, and assuming the studio takes in 60% of ticket sales (360M), and maybe 20M on DVD, bluray sales.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmende ... 5a0abb42b8

Both are considered huge flop compared to the expectations though.

Lol, who buys DVD’s and Blu-ray’s anymore? In South America, there still is heavy DVD use but almost all of it is pirated (even the blockbusters - yes those still exist somewhat down there - are renting out pirated DVD’s half the time).

Apparently 789549 people did, in the first week, for the bluray version of SOLO.
https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2018/11 ... sales.html


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Werowe4
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Posts: 83

Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#23 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:23 am

DarkRebel wrote:
Werowe4 wrote:
DarkRebel wrote:I got curious so I Google on it:
According to this one article, TLJ made over 400 million dollars. So it DID make money.
https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment ... much-money

And according this this article “($214 million domestic and $393m worldwide on a $275m budget)”, SOLO likely broke even if taking into account marketing expense, or gain a small amount of money depending on how much they spent on marketing. Typical marketing budget for blockbuster is around 100-150 millions, and assuming the studio takes in 60% of ticket sales (360M), and maybe 20M on DVD, bluray sales.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmende ... 5a0abb42b8

Both are considered huge flop compared to the expectations though.

Lol, who buys DVD’s and Blu-ray’s anymore? In South America, there still is heavy DVD use but almost all of it is pirated (even the blockbusters - yes those still exist somewhat down there - are renting out pirated DVD’s half the time).

Apparently 789549 people did, in the first week, for the bluray version of SOLO.
https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2018/11 ... sales.html

Thanks for the link. Wow, that is surprising (to me).
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lukeskywalker
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#24 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:12 pm

I think you need to look at the whole package. Bascially from what I have read, Disney bought Lucasfilm back in 2012 and by the end of 2018 had already recovered its $4 billion investment. A span of 6+ years. The Star Wars feature films released by Disney grossed more than $4.8 billion at the box office. There's also the licensing agreements and sales of merchandise, apparel and toys. It's a moneymaker. Disney is dominating the film industry, which in turn is driving a lot of sales of merch, apparel and toys.
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CoolGuy
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#25 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:58 pm

Just got back from watching Endgame and I'm sad to say I didn't enjoy it. Convoluted story with plot holes and more political correctness at the end. I'm a massive fan of the MCU and I have watched Infinity War numerous times, but Endgame was a fail for me.
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RylosAlchiban
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#26 » Wed May 01, 2019 12:55 am

I really liked Captain America the First Avenger, The First 2 Iron Man Movies, The Avengers Movie, Doctor Strange & Infinity War. I hated Age of Ultron (walked out it was so awful), Winter Soldier, Civil War, and Endgame. If Captain America didn't go back in time and save Bucky from his "Death" and years of torture, than it totally destroyed Captain America as well. Not sure how Infinity War turned out so awesome, while Endgame was so terrible - like a swift kick in the gut.

Congratulations Disney you made a ton of money while destroying your classic characters once again. NOT a very smart long term business decision. These recent Disney movies also seemed to be very blatantly anti-America in their messaging. So much so that I find it highly offensive.

NOT having much faith right now for Star Wars episode 9.

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/1013044/Star-Wars-9-plot-release-date-leak-JJ-Abrams-Episode-IX-theories-fan-backlash-boycott

Somebody please re-assemble the Avengers - we need some real heroes to fight these Disney villains.
Star Wars Episode IX - Operation Humpty Dumpty


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Werowe4
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#27 » Wed May 01, 2019 1:45 am

RylosAlchiban wrote:I really liked Captain America the First Avenger, The First 2 Iron Man Movies, The Avengers Movie, Doctor Strange & Infinity War. I hated Age of Ultron (walked out it was so awful), Winter Soldier, Civil War, and Endgame. If Captain America didn't go back in time and save Bucky from his "Death" and years of torture, than it totally destroyed Captain America as well. Not sure how Infinity War turned out so awesome, while Endgame was so terrible - like a swift kick in the gut.

Congratulations Disney you made a ton of money while destroying your classic characters once again. NOT a very smart long term business decision. These recent Disney movies also seemed to be very blatantly anti-America in their messaging. So much so that I find it highly offensive.

NOT having much faith right now for Star Wars episode 9.

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/1013044/Star-Wars-9-plot-release-date-leak-JJ-Abrams-Episode-IX-theories-fan-backlash-boycott

Somebody please re-assemble the Avengers - we need some real heroes to fight these Disney villains.

I agree with so much of what you said. I just don’t think that the ever promoted boycott of episode IX will materialize. Although it’s highly unlikely and probably wrong of me to hope for, I would really like to see Disney/Lucasfilm get hacked and have the film leaked online a week or two before the scheduled release date so as to kill their bottom line results with the film. It’s a pipe dream/fantasy though, lol. At the end of the day, I do wish that the fan’s displeasure would register more with their management at the very least (like what happened with the Star Wars Theory Vader Fan Film backlash).
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Werowe4
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#28 » Wed May 01, 2019 1:48 am

I’d be really interested to see George Lucas’ original script/plot plan for the sequel trilogy.
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Fritzie
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#29 » Wed May 01, 2019 6:00 am

mkenobi wrote:But although I and many others do not like the new SW movies, no one can say they've failed. They brought profit to Disney, more than other Marvel and DC movie. The quality can be questionable, not the return at the box office.


In one week Endgame has already passed TLJ in all-time worldwide gross. It’s #10 now ($1,342 billion), TLJ is #12 ($1,332 billion). 5 of the top 10 are Marvel movies. TFA (still) beats them though, that’s on the #3 spot ($2,068 billion). (Source boxofficemojo.com)

So true: the SW movies rake in money, but more?


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ObiWanKenobi2016
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#30 » Thu May 02, 2019 2:05 pm

TLJ made a lot of money. I hated it, and it's significantly reduced my interest and enthusiasm for this franchise but I have to concede it made Disney a lot of money.

But back to the original question. Why have the Marvel movies done well, and the Star Wars sequels (and prequels) disappointed so much?

The answer is in the quality of the writing. With few exceptions, the Marvel movies tell great stories, have understandable developments of their characters and take the viewer on a journey. The Original Trilogy did this too.

The prequels struggled with bad writing of the parts of the main protagonists - Anakin, Obi-Wan and the others. Much of the dialogue comes across better than it should because of the talents of he actors cast in the lead roles (Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiamid, Liam Neeson, etc). The fault for that lies with Lucas himself. He created a great universe when he created Star Wars, but he never could write dialogue.

The Star Wars sequels suffer from completely different failings. They don't tell original stories. TFA is a re-write of ANH. A great deal of TLJ was a re-hash of scenes from the OT (eg Hoth mk 2, the throne room scene) or well known other movies (the chase plot point copied from Battlestar Galactica).

What is worse about the sequels is their treatment of the heroes of the OT. Han Solo's story arc in ANH was one of scoundrel redeemed - a positive story arc maintained for the OT sequels. In TFA his character was tarnished unnecessarily into him becoming Bad Dad Han in an effort to explain why the lead villain of that movie Ben Solo/Kylo Ren was a baddie not a goodie. Not a good plot development, not one consistent with the OT, and not even a good story development either.

When it came to TLJ, this destruction of the OT heroes magnified exponentially with the treatment of Luke Skywalker. The heroes in the MCU don't get trashed from one movie to the next, even when the films are several years apart.

On top of that you have the unsatisfactory replacement heroes - Rey who is inexplicable good at everything and needs no training to do anything. Finn who was interesting in TFA, but was given a pointless subplot in TLJ and was largely forgettable. Poe was not properly developed in TFA, and bizarrely trashed in TLJ as the Rebel hero/leader that couldn't be trusted with the simple escape plan.

Last (and least, in my view) is the excessive social justice warrior theme. I'm mostly in favour of the ideas behind that, but it's astonishingly heavy-handed in the sequels, and the result is often antithetical, as the many complaints about it here, and elsewhere demonstrates.

In summary, the difference is the lack of originality in the sequels, the weakness of the new characters, the tarnishing / destruction of the old heroes. All of these things undermine the success and future of the Star Wars franchise.

The point I wish to finish on is this. In the MCU the heroes are all flawed and thus end up seeming more real: Tony Stark is self-destructive, Peter Parker struggles to have friends or a girlfriend, Captain America is stuck outside of his place in time and thus disjointed from the world he lives in. Their very flaws make them seem more realistic and easier to identify with. What's Rey's flaw? How has she developed over the movies? What personal struggles / changes has she overcome? I ask this rhetorically, but the answer is none. From the first moment we meet her in TFA she makes a few new friends, doesn't have to change herself in any way, and simply discovers she has more and more powers as the movies progress. What hardships has she over come? Where has she failed and had to work harder to succeed (like Luke in the cave on Dagobah)? Nowhere.

Those in control of the Star Wars franchise don't seem to understand this.

That is why their movies fail.
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