Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

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Werowe4
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#11 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:13 am

CoolGuy wrote: Political correctness ruins all movies.

Absolutely agree. Thank you!
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Werowe4
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#12 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:20 am

Forceisweaknyou wrote:I'm surprised Kathleen hasn't been more successful. She has produced some of the best movies of all time. Raiders of the Lost Ark. Back to the Future. Temple of Doom. The list goes on.

I’m sure Kathleen Kennedy is good at what she does but so far, particularly so with the sequel trilogy, she is opting to push her political agenda over the production of good films. While we don’t need to go back to the era of Leia being the only woman in the galaxy, having feminism and socialism jammed down our throats with each film becomes obnoxious or worse, boring. Further, her (I assume it’s her) crusade to push feminist characters to the detriment of existing male characters (i.e. loser Luke, bad dad Han, and even, to an extent, emo/powerless Kylo Ren), takes away from the gravitas of the fictional conflict.
As a rule, even if one wanted to add P.C. scenes to a film, make them flow with the storyline rather than adding them as obviously superfluous scenes.
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lukeskywalker
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#13 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:17 pm

darthdoodie wrote:The huge amount of comic book source material MCU can draw on is a nice bonus, but the main thing I think that separates MCU from SW and DCEU is having one person - Kevin Feige, overseeing the whole project, and who also is a bona fide fan of the lore.

Not having the A-grade MC characters at his disposal initially, he had to take time to build the whole universe. DC just dumped in all their stars and expected everyone to love it instantly = fail. SW is a bit lost without someone in charge for clear direction.

I also think SW fans are a little harsh on the new movies and are comparing them to the originals with some very heavy rose tinted glasses. MCU movie are all fresh and have no baggage.


Bingo! Kevin Feige from the start through the finish. One main vision, but someone who's open to new ideas. Add excellent casting, acting, excellent directors, 10+ years of a connected universe, etc.
Last edited by lukeskywalker on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Forceisweaknyou
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#14 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:14 pm

Werowe4 wrote:
Forceisweaknyou wrote:I'm surprised Kathleen hasn't been more successful. She has produced some of the best movies of all time. Raiders of the Lost Ark. Back to the Future. Temple of Doom. The list goes on.

I’m sure Kathleen Kennedy is good at what she does but so far, particularly so with the sequel trilogy, she is opting to push her political agenda over the production of good films. While we don’t need to go back to the era of Leia being the only woman in the galaxy, having feminism and socialism jammed down our throats with each film becomes obnoxious or worse, boring. Further, her (I assume it’s her) crusade to push feminist characters to the detriment of existing male characters (i.e. loser Luke, bad dad Han, and even, to an extent, emo/powerless Kylo Ren), takes away from the gravitas of the fictional conflict.
As a rule, even if one wanted to add P.C. scenes to a film, make them flow with the storyline rather than adding them as obviously superfluous scenes.

Good points. I have heard this sentiment from others as well. I wasn't a big fan of the girl power scene in endgame. When I saw all of the women Heroes together it felt forced. Because obviously the odds of all the women randomly grouping up in a massive melee are astronomical. I did love Captain Marvel and her girl power story. It was certainly a challenge to do the things she wanted to accomplish in her era. My girls loved that movie. A good example of the message seamlessly integrated into the storyline.
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lukeskywalker
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#15 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:54 pm

Forceisweaknyou wrote:
Werowe4 wrote:
Forceisweaknyou wrote:I'm surprised Kathleen hasn't been more successful. She has produced some of the best movies of all time. Raiders of the Lost Ark. Back to the Future. Temple of Doom. The list goes on.

I’m sure Kathleen Kennedy is good at what she does but so far, particularly so with the sequel trilogy, she is opting to push her political agenda over the production of good films. While we don’t need to go back to the era of Leia being the only woman in the galaxy, having feminism and socialism jammed down our throats with each film becomes obnoxious or worse, boring. Further, her (I assume it’s her) crusade to push feminist characters to the detriment of existing male characters (i.e. loser Luke, bad dad Han, and even, to an extent, emo/powerless Kylo Ren), takes away from the gravitas of the fictional conflict.
As a rule, even if one wanted to add P.C. scenes to a film, make them flow with the storyline rather than adding them as obviously superfluous scenes.

Good points. I have heard this sentiment from others as well. I wasn't a big fan of the girl power scene in endgame. When I saw all of the women Heroes together it felt forced. Because obviously the odds of all the women randomly grouping up in a massive melee are astronomical. I did love Captain Marvel and her girl power story. It was certainly a challenge to do the things she wanted to accomplish in her era. My girls loved that movie. A good example of the message seamlessly integrated into the storyline.


My niece loved the scene where the woman joined forces to assist Captain Marvel through the gauntlet (pun intended). She couldn't stop talking about that scene, Captain Marvel's entrance taking out that ship, and the Thano's headbutt. I get your point though. A lot of fan service involved, but I enjoyed it and just took those types of scenes as a wink by the Russo Brothers and Feige.
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Forceisweaknyou
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#16 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:33 pm

lukeskywalker wrote:
Forceisweaknyou wrote:
Werowe4 wrote:I’m sure Kathleen Kennedy is good at what she does but so far, particularly so with the sequel trilogy, she is opting to push her political agenda over the production of good films. While we don’t need to go back to the era of Leia being the only woman in the galaxy, having feminism and socialism jammed down our throats with each film becomes obnoxious or worse, boring. Further, her (I assume it’s her) crusade to push feminist characters to the detriment of existing male characters (i.e. loser Luke, bad dad Han, and even, to an extent, emo/powerless Kylo Ren), takes away from the gravitas of the fictional conflict.
As a rule, even if one wanted to add P.C. scenes to a film, make them flow with the storyline rather than adding them as obviously superfluous scenes.

Good points. I have heard this sentiment from others as well. I wasn't a big fan of the girl power scene in endgame. When I saw all of the women Heroes together it felt forced. Because obviously the odds of all the women randomly grouping up in a massive melee are astronomical. I did love Captain Marvel and her girl power story. It was certainly a challenge to do the things she wanted to accomplish in her era. My girls loved that movie. A good example of the message seamlessly integrated into the storyline.


My niece loved the scene where the woman joined forces to assist Captain Marvel through the gauntlet (pun intended). She couldn't stop talking about that scene, Captain Marvel's entrance taking out that ship, and the Thano's headbutt. I get your point though. A lot of fan service involved, but I enjoyed it and just took those types of scenes as a wink by the Russo Brothers and Feige.

Glad she liked it! My experience certainly doesn't speak for everyone.
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lukeskywalker
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#17 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:30 pm

This thread does bring up a big question though. We all brought up things Marvel has done well, but not all of the movies in their 10+ year arch were home runs. They bought enough good will at some point, for fans to forgive the occasional average movie, and there was enough connectivity that you wanted to see the films for what they would tell you about the rest of the arch.

For Star Wars, I am a fan of the original trilogy. It lost me at the prequel trilogy. The casting choices were weak in my opinion, and while I continued to watch the movies to follow, I was never as invested as when I saw the original trilogy. The Last Jedi renewed my interest, so that was a long time in between where my interest was luke warm. Pun intended. I also realize that Last Jedi was pretty divisive, so while it drew me back in a bit, it may also have turned a lot of people off. As mkenobi pointed out though, Star Wars still rakes in money, so the term falters is relative.
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Werowe4
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#18 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:39 am

lukeskywalker wrote:This thread does bring up a big question though. We all brought up things Marvel has done well, but not all of the movies in their 10+ year arch were home runs. They bought enough good will at some point, for fans to forgive the occasional average movie, and there was enough connectivity that you wanted to see the films for what they would tell you about the rest of the arch.

For Star Wars, I am a fan of the original trilogy. It lost me at the prequel trilogy. The casting choices were weak in my opinion, and while I continued to watch the movies to follow, I was never as invested as when I saw the original trilogy. The Last Jedi renewed my interest, so that was a long time in between where my interest was luke warm. Pun intended. I also realize that Last Jedi was pretty divisive, so while it drew me back in a bit, it may also have turned a lot of people off. As mkenobi pointed out though, Star Wars still rakes in money, so the term falters is relative.

Two things: (1) while the prequels weren’t done well film wise, I do like/appreciate them for the expanded universe information they bring (which allowed for clone wars/rebels and legends); (2) as for SW raking in money, didn’t TLJ tank in China and Solo result in a net loss?
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Werowe4
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#19 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:43 am

Forceisweaknyou wrote:
Werowe4 wrote:
Forceisweaknyou wrote:I'm surprised Kathleen hasn't been more successful. She has produced some of the best movies of all time. Raiders of the Lost Ark. Back to the Future. Temple of Doom. The list goes on.

I’m sure Kathleen Kennedy is good at what she does but so far, particularly so with the sequel trilogy, she is opting to push her political agenda over the production of good films. While we don’t need to go back to the era of Leia being the only woman in the galaxy, having feminism and socialism jammed down our throats with each film becomes obnoxious or worse, boring. Further, her (I assume it’s her) crusade to push feminist characters to the detriment of existing male characters (i.e. loser Luke, bad dad Han, and even, to an extent, emo/powerless Kylo Ren), takes away from the gravitas of the fictional conflict.
As a rule, even if one wanted to add P.C. scenes to a film, make them flow with the storyline rather than adding them as obviously superfluous scenes.

Good points. I have heard this sentiment from others as well. I wasn't a big fan of the girl power scene in endgame. When I saw all of the women Heroes together it felt forced. Because obviously the odds of all the women randomly grouping up in a massive melee are astronomical. I did love Captain Marvel and her girl power story. It was certainly a challenge to do the things she wanted to accomplish in her era. My girls loved that movie. A good example of the message seamlessly integrated into the storyline.

The girl power scene was obvious but at least fit in more or less, even if it did “take one out of the fiction.” Another P.C. moment that fit much more seamlessly into the film (it would’ve only stuck out to ppl like me who are more alert for such things) was the openly gay guy discussing his first date in a while in Captain America’s support group.
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DarkRebel
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Re: Why is Avengers successful while Star Wars falters? (Endgame spoilers included!)

Post#20 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:27 am

Werowe4 wrote:
lukeskywalker wrote:This thread does bring up a big question though. We all brought up things Marvel has done well, but not all of the movies in their 10+ year arch were home runs. They bought enough good will at some point, for fans to forgive the occasional average movie, and there was enough connectivity that you wanted to see the films for what they would tell you about the rest of the arch.

For Star Wars, I am a fan of the original trilogy. It lost me at the prequel trilogy. The casting choices were weak in my opinion, and while I continued to watch the movies to follow, I was never as invested as when I saw the original trilogy. The Last Jedi renewed my interest, so that was a long time in between where my interest was luke warm. Pun intended. I also realize that Last Jedi was pretty divisive, so while it drew me back in a bit, it may also have turned a lot of people off. As mkenobi pointed out though, Star Wars still rakes in money, so the term falters is relative.

Two things: (1) while the prequels weren’t done well film wise, I do like/appreciate them for the expanded universe information they bring (which allowed for clone wars/rebels and legends); (2) as for SW raking in money, didn’t TLJ tank in China and Solo result in a net loss?

I got curious so I Google on it:
According to this one article, TLJ made over 400 million dollars. So it DID make money.
https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment ... much-money

And according this this article “($214 million domestic and $393m worldwide on a $275m budget)”, SOLO likely broke even if taking into account marketing expense, or gain a small amount of money depending on how much they spent on marketing. Typical marketing budget for blockbuster is around 100-150 millions, and assuming the studio takes in 60% of ticket sales (360M), and maybe 20M on DVD, bluray sales.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmende ... 5a0abb42b8

Both are considered huge flop compared to the expectations though.


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