Star Wars Episode IX - The Rise Of Skywalker - Discusson Topic

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TNT
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Re: Star Wars Episode IX - The Rise Of Skywalker - Discusson Topic

Post#201 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:57 am

Mkenobi what happened between this:
mkenobi wrote:TLJ has been praised by critics because in addition to being a darling of critics for his work as director in Looper, Rian has earned the rest of the critics for his creative, innovative and subversive vision of the Star Wars universe - critics love that kind of thing! Fans hate it, especially when they mess with things they love for decades - original trilogy characters and dogmas.

The critics hated Rise because it's all forced, obvious, flawed, poorly written, misdirected and all the bad things a critic might notice in a movie. Rise is a movie for fans, not for critics - critics don't buy tickets, don't forget!

I personally really enjoyed the movie, in some scenes I really loved it - I've seen it 3 times, and intend to see it again. It's the best of the Disney trilogy so far, not really good, but it's fun and honors the tradition of the original movies.

Stop asking how Maz got Luke's lightsaber, or how Rey might be using the lightsaber if the lightsaber was destroyed in her fight with Kylo on TLJ! Your life as a SW fan in the Disney era will be so much more fun if you just stop asking stupid questions like that. :lol:

and this:
mkenobi wrote:If there is a hell where all the Sith go, from the bottom of my heart, I hope Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson and everyone involved in this stupid trilogy will burn there for eternity.

No more going back, it's over, and in the worst way possible. TFA wasn't so painful to see, but TLJ ruined my entire childhood and 42 years of magic in just 2h30min, and TROS ruined the rest of my life with such bullshit that if I lived longer than Yoda I wouldn't be able to get over it.


Also, don't go to screenrant. Don't do that to yourself.


I saw the movie and it was as good as it could be considering what came before it. I enjoyed my time with it, but there are a lot of problems with it, some by their own stupidity and some out of their hands.

Like all scenes with Leia. They did an admirable job, but they all miss warmth because Leia can't act/react with others.
Poe and Fin I loved.
Babu Frick was great.
The only surprise twist was probably the identity of the spy.
I liked the final space battle including the insanity of using horses to land on a star destroyer. (I saw someone mention that there was no air, but it was within an atmosphere, they still needed to leave the planet. The air probably was a bit thin though, but that's unnecessary nitpicking.)
But I disliked the "fight" with the Emperor, it was lame.
The exchange of life force just had people in the movie theater laughing. Literally.
They kinda broke the force with the powers Rey and Ben were using. Teleporting physical objects, reviving dead people with their own life force? Healing is to be expected, but there should've been limits. And why was that still there? Snoke said he made the connection.
The movie was also filled to the brim with shout outs and references. Some good, some fun, some incredibly forced, but all in all way too many.

Also can we get a good laugh at the Knight of Ren? Masters of knocking down a man without a weapon and standing around....MENACINGLY!

I wish the trilogy were better.

The goodbye to 3PO was really touching...except he's back by the end. Actually, that's a running theme in the movie. There are no consequences for the good guys.
Oh no I killed Chewie?! Oh wait, there he is. (I didn't believe this one for a second)
Oh no we killed 3PO! Oh wait, Artoo has a backup. (This pissed me off because the goodbye moment was so well done)
Oh no, they blew up the snow planet we went to earlier and killed Babu Frick? Also Zorii. Oh wait, never mind here they are.
Oh no Rey killed Ben! Oh wait, never mind. She healed him.
Oh no Palpatine sucked the lifeforce from Rey and Ben to revive himself! Oh wait, it was just a little apparently. They're fine.
Oh no Ben fell down a hole. Oh wait, there he is.
Oh no Rey died! Oh wait, never mind. Here she is again.


mkenobi wrote:What bothers me most is that TROS is the fourth Death Star-related SW movie in one way or another, and the fifth movie if you think of Starkiller as a kingsize Death Star. Here are a few - just a few - questions from TROS regarding the presence of the Death Star in the movie and the Sith Wayfinders - that make no sense to me because...

...the Sith Dagger shows the exact point in the destroyed Death Star where the Sith Wayfinder is - how if the dagger was built before the Death Star was built but shows exactly the position of the Death Star to the Wayfinder after it was destroyed??? Or did I miss something here and the inscriptions were carved later???


That part really broke my suspension of belief as well. More miraculously is that the dagger showed her where she needed to go because a broken off piece looked exactly like the outline of the dagger...I...what?
Also a good thing that the power source for that door was still working, which was to be expected considering the damage to the rest.

mkenobi wrote:...then I can't imagine how something has survived like a piece so large that it includes the Throne Room where the Wayfinder is and any starfighter launch pad...
...where Kylo Ren now Ben Solo found a Tie Fighter in perfect condition after 35 years and flew to Exegol, but how did that survive the explosion??? How did Kylo get to Exegol so fast if Tie Fighters of that time didn't have hyperdrive???
And the Death Star was orbiting the Endor's Forest Moon, and if there was any wreckage it should have fallen into the Endor's Forest Moon and not into Endor's Ocean Moon!

Actually it's much more likely that that Tie fighter is the fighter Kylo used to come to the planet in the first place. His original fighter was destroyed yet he somehow appears on that planet to confront Rey in the first place. IT also explains the hyperdrive problem.


The best part about the Snoke reveal is that it broke the Wookiepedia page on him. :) Snoke was such a terrible character.


And why does Disney hate Luke's green lightsaber? Why invent Leia's lightsaber when she could've used Luke's instead! It even makes more narrative sense because then Palpatine would've died to the combined saber of father and son.
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mkenobi
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Re: Star Wars Episode IX - The Rise Of Skywalker - Discusson Topic

Post#202 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:27 am

TNT wrote:Mkenobi what happened between this:
mkenobi wrote:TLJ has been praised by critics because in addition to being a darling of critics for his work as director in Looper, Rian has earned the rest of the critics for his creative, innovative and subversive vision of the Star Wars universe - critics love that kind of thing! Fans hate it, especially when they mess with things they love for decades - original trilogy characters and dogmas.

The critics hated Rise because it's all forced, obvious, flawed, poorly written, misdirected and all the bad things a critic might notice in a movie. Rise is a movie for fans, not for critics - critics don't buy tickets, don't forget!

I personally really enjoyed the movie, in some scenes I really loved it - I've seen it 3 times, and intend to see it again. It's the best of the Disney trilogy so far, not really good, but it's fun and honors the tradition of the original movies.

Stop asking how Maz got Luke's lightsaber, or how Rey might be using the lightsaber if the lightsaber was destroyed in her fight with Kylo on TLJ! Your life as a SW fan in the Disney era will be so much more fun if you just stop asking stupid questions like that. :lol:

and this:
mkenobi wrote:If there is a hell where all the Sith go, from the bottom of my heart, I hope Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson and everyone involved in this stupid trilogy will burn there for eternity.

No more going back, it's over, and in the worst way possible. TFA wasn't so painful to see, but TLJ ruined my entire childhood and 42 years of magic in just 2h30min, and TROS ruined the rest of my life with such bullshit that if I lived longer than Yoda I wouldn't be able to get over it.


Also, don't go to screenrant. Don't do that to yourself.

Like I said, I liked the movie, there are scenes I loved, even involving characters I don't like - Kylo/Ben, Poe and Finn - and the rest is a last minute invention to close the shooting schedule after so many troubles - remember that the initial director Colin Trevorrow was fired and the script redone after Abrams was hired. And Carrie passed away, which eliminated most of Leia's scenes and forced the use of old footage from previous films - Han "ghost" was the poor solution found since Carrie was not there to make the scene of her son's redemption, which ruined the whole scene). Too many problems...

I liked the movie, but I won't stop pointing out all flaws I noticed. At times it looks more like a sequence of "Spaceballs" than "Star Wars"! :lol:

One of the big problems with TLJ was that Johnson tried to make a movie "too serious" according to his style and idiosyncrasies, without regard to Star Wars and how hardcore fans would react to such drastic plot changes and inversion of expectations.

The great merit of TROS is not taking anything too seriously, respecting fans because their tickets pay for the movie, and at this point TROS is ten times better than TLJ.

We're discussing the movie, and most of us liked the movie, so if a movie can go on pleasing even after the emotional impact already gone (it's a new Star Wars movie, it's the "last" of the saga, it's the last with Carrie), despite all the production issues and flaws, so the movie is really good from the entertainment point of view, not the technical point of view - this is for critics. We're all fans here, screw the critics.

Rey stole Kylo's fighter and left him walking over the ruins of Death Star - that's how she found the Sith Wayfinder inside the ship after destroying it already on Ahch-To, so unless Kylo found a Tie in the ruins from the Death Star that worked to take him to Exegol, and since all Marauder's warriors went to fight in the Resistance, there was no way he could get out of there. Or he turned on some remote control under his helmet and called a First Order Tie Fighter (with hyperdrive) to rescue him.

These are simple situations to solve with a 15-second cutscene, but they cost hours of discussion in chat groups/forums.

And about screenrant, there are other sites I am following to see if I missed anything, like this one https://www.inverse.com/topic/star-wars ... -skywalker
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Re: Star Wars Episode IX - The Rise Of Skywalker - Discusson Topic

Post#203 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:46 am

No talk regarding how the movie isn't what JJ Abrams wanted, got cut by 40 mins and Disney got involved in the story line?
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Re: Star Wars Episode IX - The Rise Of Skywalker - Discusson Topic

Post#204 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:55 pm

RogueTwo wrote:And this is probably going to be my last Star Wars movie in the theater. Tired of stuff getting placed in movies to make a point:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/1 ... -sex-kiss/

Not sure my kids will go now.


....you wouldn't take your kids to see the movie, because of a .0001 second scene that happens in the background and is barely even noticeable behind the main characters (where the camera is focused)?

The crazy amounts of violence, and at times gore, and dark themes in this series isn't bothersome to your kids? Anakin slaughtering younglings and Tusken Raiders - even the women and children; isn't bothering? The amount of hands lost in the OT/PT isn't bothering? But this would be?

I'm far from liberal, and I'm married with three daughters. But I find this the most ridiculous and incredulous thing I've read on the internet today.


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Re: Star Wars Episode IX - The Rise Of Skywalker - Discusson Topic

Post#205 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:01 pm

+1

that's a very high hurdle, but you are correct, it's absurd.

I have two daughters myself, one that was born that way and one that wasn't. So ... enough said.
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Re: Star Wars Episode IX - The Rise Of Skywalker - Discusson Topic

Post#206 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:42 am

mkenobi wrote:Like I said, I liked the movie, there are scenes I loved, even involving characters I don't like - Kylo/Ben, Poe and Finn - and the rest is a last minute invention to close the shooting schedule after so many troubles - remember that the initial director Colin Trevorrow was fired and the script redone after Abrams was hired. And Carrie passed away, which eliminated most of Leia's scenes and forced the use of old footage from previous films - Han "ghost" was the poor solution found since Carrie was not there to make the scene of her son's redemption, which ruined the whole scene). Too many problems...

I liked the movie, but I won't stop pointing out all flaws I noticed. At times it looks more like a sequence of "Spaceballs" than "Star Wars"! :lol:

One of the big problems with TLJ was that Johnson tried to make a movie "too serious" according to his style and idiosyncrasies, without regard to Star Wars and how hardcore fans would react to such drastic plot changes and inversion of expectations.

The great merit of TROS is not taking anything too seriously, respecting fans because their tickets pay for the movie, and at this point TROS is ten times better than TLJ.

We're discussing the movie, and most of us liked the movie, so if a movie can go on pleasing even after the emotional impact already gone (it's a new Star Wars movie, it's the "last" of the saga, it's the last with Carrie), despite all the production issues and flaws, so the movie is really good from the entertainment point of view, not the technical point of view - this is for critics. We're all fans here, screw the critics.

Rey stole Kylo's fighter and left him walking over the ruins of Death Star - that's how she found the Sith Wayfinder inside the ship after destroying it already on Ahch-To, so unless Kylo found a Tie in the ruins from the Death Star that worked to take him to Exegol, and since all Marauder's warriors went to fight in the Resistance, there was no way he could get out of there. Or he turned on some remote control under his helmet and called a First Order Tie Fighter (with hyperdrive) to rescue him.

These are simple situations to solve with a 15-second cutscene, but they cost hours of discussion in chat groups/forums.

And about screenrant, there are other sites I am following to see if I missed anything, like this one https://www.inverse.com/topic/star-wars ... -skywalker



I was actually referring to the following parts:
I personally really enjoyed the movie, in some scenes I really loved it - I've seen it 3 times, and intend to see it again. It's the best of the Disney trilogy so far, not really good, but it's fun and honors the tradition of the original movies.

vs
mkenobi wrote:If there is a hell where all the Sith go, from the bottom of my heart, I hope Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson and everyone involved in this stupid trilogy will burn there for eternity.

No more going back, it's over, and in the worst way possible. TFA wasn't so painful to see, but TLJ ruined my entire childhood and 42 years of magic in just 2h30min, and TROS ruined the rest of my life with such bullshit that if I lived longer than Yoda I wouldn't be able to get over it.


You should recognize flaws and good points in everything as nothing is perfect. But in one post you praise it and in the next you call it the worst thing ever. Or maybe you meant it sarcastic and I failed to detect it?

Oh yeah that's right. That's where she got the wayfinder from.


I think we mostly agree on TROS.
It's not a bad movie, it's not a good movie.
It to me made the world feel more Starwars than TLJ managed to. However I do think TLJ had more interesting ideas for the characters even if it didn't follow through on some of them.
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Re: Star Wars Episode IX - The Rise Of Skywalker - Discusson Topic

Post#207 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:22 am

TNT wrote:
mkenobi wrote:Like I said, I liked the movie, there are scenes I loved, even involving characters I don't like - Kylo/Ben, Poe and Finn - and the rest is a last minute invention to close the shooting schedule after so many troubles - remember that the initial director Colin Trevorrow was fired and the script redone after Abrams was hired. And Carrie passed away, which eliminated most of Leia's scenes and forced the use of old footage from previous films - Han "ghost" was the poor solution found since Carrie was not there to make the scene of her son's redemption, which ruined the whole scene). Too many problems...



I was actually referring to the following parts:
I personally really enjoyed the movie, in some scenes I really loved it - I've seen it 3 times, and intend to see it again. It's the best of the Disney trilogy so far, not really good, but it's fun and honors the tradition of the original movies.

vs
mkenobi wrote:If there is a hell where all the Sith go, from the bottom of my heart, I hope Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson and everyone involved in this stupid trilogy will burn there for eternity.

No more going back, it's over, and in the worst way possible. TFA wasn't so painful to see, but TLJ ruined my entire childhood and 42 years of magic in just 2h30min, and TROS ruined the rest of my life with such bullshit that if I lived longer than Yoda I wouldn't be able to get over it.


You should recognize flaws and good points in everything as nothing is perfect. But in one post you praise it and in the next you call it the worst thing ever. Or maybe you meant it sarcastic and I failed to detect it?

Oh yeah that's right. That's where she got the wayfinder from.


I think we mostly agree on TROS.
It's not a bad movie, it's not a good movie.
It to me made the world feel more Starwars than TLJ managed to. However I do think TLJ had more interesting ideas for the characters even if it didn't follow through on some of them.

I agree with you.

Liking something doesn't mean it's good, it's based on personal experience. I liked TROS because it provided me with a good experience despite the flaws and bullshit. TLJ was a much better movie technically, but it gave me a terrible SW fan experience, so I hated it, but TLJ is a better movie than TROS in many ways.

The problem is what fans expected from this trilogy and especially from the second episode, and what they received, and the changes that were made to try to please everyone in the end.

I should have learned from TV series like X Files and Game of Thrones, and even from movie series like Matrix, not to raise such high my expectations. The damage caused by the Disney trilogy is irreversible, and is the result of mismanagement and incompetence that reigns today at Lucasfilm and has a name: Kathleen Kennedy. She and Rian Johnson are to blame for ruining SW, and dividing the fandom between likers and haters.

I don't blame Abrams for anything, he made a good first movie, and in the third tried to correct everything they did wrong in the second. He failed to fix everything, and still created new problems, but the balance was positive -- despite all problems and flaws.
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Re: Star Wars Episode IX - The Rise Of Skywalker - Discusson Topic

Post#208 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:26 pm

mkenobi wrote:If there is a hell where all the Sith go, from the bottom of my heart, I hope Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson and everyone involved in this stupid trilogy will burn there for eternity.

I agree whole heartedly.

mkenobi wrote:No more going back, it's over, and in the worst way possible. TFA wasn't so painful to see, but TLJ ruined my entire childhood and 42 years of magic in just 2h30min, and TROS ruined the rest of my life with such bullshit that if I lived longer than Yoda I wouldn't be able to get over it.


Yes the movies are over but there is hope. The Clone Wars returns for another season this February; I'm betting there will possibly be references addressing loose ends from the movie(s) that fit within the timeline. That possibility also exists with "The Mandolorian" also but I really hope they don't taint that series with bs just to further appease fans. The obi wan series is where all the answers should wind up at. I think no one will care to wait much less see it those in a new trilogy years from now.

The really sad part is they burned JJ Abrams badly if the stories are true about how the film was edited after the fact. A director's cut I assume would require his involvement again and that looks like a 90 degree day on Hoth before that happens. Nice job Kathy, good looking out for the guy that could have saved your career and a franchise...
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Re: Star Wars Episode IX - The Rise Of Skywalker - Discusson Topic

Post#209 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:03 am

mkenobi wrote:I agree with you.

Liking something doesn't mean it's good, it's based on personal experience. I liked TROS because it provided me with a good experience despite the flaws and bullshit. TLJ was a much better movie technically, but it gave me a terrible SW fan experience, so I hated it, but TLJ is a better movie than TROS in many ways.

The problem is what fans expected from this trilogy and especially from the second episode, and what they received, and the changes that were made to try to please everyone in the end.

I should have learned from TV series like X Files and Game of Thrones, and even from movie series like Matrix, not to raise such high my expectations. The damage caused by the Disney trilogy is irreversible, and is the result of mismanagement and incompetence that reigns today at Lucasfilm and has a name: Kathleen Kennedy. She and Rian Johnson are to blame for ruining SW, and dividing the fandom between likers and haters.

I don't blame Abrams for anything, he made a good first movie, and in the third tried to correct everything they did wrong in the second. He failed to fix everything, and still created new problems, but the balance was positive -- despite all problems and flaws.

JJ wasn't the right director either I think.

TFA is an enjoyable movie that feels very Starwars. However it's completely devoid of originality. It also fits on the OT like a round peg fits into a square hole. Most of the other shortcomings we forgive because it's the first of the trilogy.
TLJ doens't feel very Starwars, mostly ignores the previous film but has a bunch of other good ideas.
RoTS feels Starwars for the most part, but as we agree on, it has a whole host of improbably narrative points that just break all suspension of disbelief. In addition it doesn't even fit into it's own trilogy.

At this point, I'd actually be more interested in seeing a standalone trilogy/single movie by Rian than by JJ. JJ had 2 shots at making a Starwars movie. The only movie that's not an ill fitting carbon copy of a previous movie just isn't very good. And while it isn't be fair to put all the blame on RoTs for its own shortcomings, fact is that a movie needs to be able to stand on it's own as well and JJ failed on that as well.

And yes, that the only chance of giving the original cast a good sendoff was squandered hurts like hell and pisses me off.
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Re: Star Wars Episode IX - The Rise Of Skywalker - Discusson Topic

Post#210 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:39 am

I don't think TLj was a good movie, even ignoring the inconsistencies with TFA and it's place as part of a wider franchise. The 40 minute casino sub plot that led to nothing was a waste of time. The poorly copied plot device of chasing starships but being unable to catch them doesn't work in the Star Wars universe where only v small ships don't have hyperdrives. Killing off the principal villain so easily, and in the middle of the movie is a poor idea, badly executed. Mary Poppins Leia, Mary Sue Rey, the space horses fiasco, Holdo not telling Poe and others of her plan, etc. These are all critical failings in the story telling of that movie.


As I've said elsewhere, I don't think TLJ will maintain it's critical favour over time. Thwarted expectations and unexpected deaths were a v 2017 critical phenomenon, due to the popularity of Game of Thrones which had several of them. Game of Thrones however, did them in a story told over multiple episodes and multiple seasons. A 2 hour (or 2 hour 30) movie is a very different medium in which to tell a story. It just doesn't work in that context.


And re the OT
TNT wrote:And yes, that the only chance of giving the original cast a good sendoff was squandered hurts like hell and pisses me off.


Absolutely. Leia was deified, Han was demeaned and Luke Skywalker was used to get the audience interested in posters and trailers, and then either not shown or character assassinated in a catastrophic fashion.


I have no doubt that the reason they struggled to do anything with Luke Skywalker was that he was hard to write for. He was supposed to be the all powerful jedi, and according to Lucas, the most powerful Jedi there ever has been or will be. The script-writing challenge with him in a story is that if he's not killed off, why don't the other characters go to him, get him to take on the First Order / Snoke and win the battle for them (and yet, that's exactly what they did with Rey). However, this same problem is dealt with in the Marvel franchise in movie after movie, whether it be Thor (a demi-god), the Hulk, Ironman, Spider-Man, and in the DC franchise with Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and the list goes on and on and on.


The Rian Johnson solution was lazy writing and grated harshly with all that we knew of that character (the main character) in the OT.
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