GALACTIC CONFLICT - New Guard Reserve #2 - Discussion Topic

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Boog
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Re: GALACTIC CONFLICT - New Guard Reserve #2 - Discussion Topic

Post#11 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:18 am

The leaderboards don't show proof of anything. Rebels spent the last year whining about sniper GR, pouted and hid on Tatooine. They complained that they could no longer compete in conflicts, and that defense was impossible for them on any planets other than desert planets. None of this was true. During all that time, there were rebels racking up defensive wins on Hoth and on the forest planets. And there were rebels attacking on those planets and finishing in the top 50 of conflicts. But, the tired old story was that the devs were against the rebels and making it impossible for them to compete.

Then one day, a conflict for sharpshooter gr arrived, and all of a sudden rebels could compete on every planet. Lol! Nothing changed to improve their ability to attack, but suddenly they could (and did, and still do), and have been all over the leaderboards on all planets. This has nothing to do with sharpshooter gr. It just has to do with competing and not hiding like a bunch of pansies on Tatooine.


strawman3125
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Re: GALACTIC CONFLICT - Guard Reserve Equipment - Discussion Topic

Post#12 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:19 am

TNT wrote:Buffed bursts do good damage, however they're massively deadly because of the buff against jets and the buff against bruisers (such as the TX).
Bursts however have always been the second most damaging turret. So why weren't burst farms a thing before?
Their weakness to keep them in check was their range. You couldn't go with just bursts or a sonic burst farm in the past because the long range HMC/Hails would slaughter an unprepared base.
However above a certain lvl HMC/Hails have stopped being used completely despite being the perfect hard counter to bursts.
Why? For the empire the HMC is too slow. The units that need to do clear the way are quickly killed by a combination of GR and turrets after which the GR makes quick work of the HMC. For Rebels, while hails are fast enough to keep up, they're too fragile and even a stray bomber run from a Rodian will kill it. Let alone any other GR.

So what about the heavy medic combo? Heavies can survive a burst from the burst turret and get healed back up, but it's also failing as Sniper/SS GR slowly whittles it down from a safe distance or finishes the heavy after the bursts have had their say.
The difference is huge. Recent trooper only attacks barely get 30% against my base since the unlock of the SS GR. And that's without even getting near the SC. Before the SS they would get to around 40-60 and the SC would spring into action to save my base.
I recently barely lost a defense (53%!) after someone sniped my SC as his units struggled to get past my flesh walls as the sullustans slowly whittled his units down.

You can either buff the HMC/Hail


I agree with those points. I would love to see the Hoth buff for Hails and MHCs on all worlds! Though that would not be a fix because of the issues that you mentioned, and the AI for the MHCs needs to be fixed as they seem to enjoy spending far too much time dancing on the spot rather than actually firing.

I have watched my buffed bursts melt Maxed out heavies with skins with 3+ maxed out healing droids healing them in less than a second... so they are not a solution...

Another powerful thing about the sonic burst combo is that you want to spread your jets/jumps out to avoid the sonics but you want to group them to take out the bursts meaning there is no great way to deploy against a well setup defense with both of them.

TNT wrote:Truthfully, at this point I find it just silly to argue against the notion that SS/S GR is OP.
One only has to look at the recent leaderboards since the introduction of the SS GR to get all the proof he or she needs regarding their power.
Dandoran leaderboard belongs to the rebels. Yavin gets a sudden 50/50 split and a third of the Tako leaderboard are rebels. A huge amount of their points coming from defense wins.
Can you explain that for me without pointing at the SSS GR?


Everyone is going to interpret the leaderboards however they want... What I take from the leaderboards data is this: I counted the number of players with double digit defensive wins in the top 50 leaderboards for the 6 conflicts before GR SS came out and there were FAR MORE Rebels with double digits defensive wins than Imperials and that is still the case now, if anything the gap is widening.

I think the only thing that GR SS did was give the Rebels the morale boost required to get off of the dessert worlds and start competing on other worlds.

So my interpretation of the leaderboard data is that the Rebels had the defensive advantage before GR SS and now that they have GR SS, that advantage has only grown.


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Richaldo
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Re: GALACTIC CONFLICT - New Guard Reserve #2 - Discussion Topic

Post#13 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:50 am

Boog wrote:The leaderboards don't show proof of anything. Rebels spent the last year whining about sniper GR, pouted and hid on Tatooine. They complained that they could no longer compete in conflicts, and that defense was impossible for them on any planets other than desert planets. None of this was true. During all that time, there were rebels racking up defensive wins on Hoth and on the forest planets. And there were rebels attacking on those planets and finishing in the top 50 of conflicts. But, the tired old story was that the devs were against the rebels and making it impossible for them to compete.

Then one day, a conflict for sharpshooter gr arrived, and all of a sudden rebels could compete on every planet. Lol! Nothing changed to improve their ability to attack, but suddenly they could (and did, and still do), and have been all over the leaderboards on all planets. This has nothing to do with sharpshooter gr. It just has to do with competing and not hiding like a bunch of pansies on Tatooine.


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sneakyzapper
Major General
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Re: GALACTIC CONFLICT - New Guard Reserve #2 - Discussion Topic

Post#14 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:18 am

Boog wrote:The leaderboards don't show proof of anything. Rebels spent the last year whining about sniper GR, pouted and hid on Tatooine. They complained that they could no longer compete in conflicts, and that defense was impossible for them on any planets other than desert planets. None of this was true. During all that time, there were rebels racking up defensive wins on Hoth and on the forest planets. And there were rebels attacking on those planets and finishing in the top 50 of conflicts. But, the tired old story was that the devs were against the rebels and making it impossible for them to compete.

Then one day, a conflict for sharpshooter gr arrived, and all of a sudden rebels could compete on every planet. Lol! Nothing changed to improve their ability to attack, but suddenly they could (and did, and still do), and have been all over the leaderboards on all planets. This has nothing to do with sharpshooter gr. It just has to do with competing and not hiding like a bunch of pansies on Tatooine.



Agree with this.

With the right motivation they attacked and spiked up numbers for the shock troopers. Felt like few went for lvl 6 worth on them Imp Side.

They cant win when they dont play haha.


TNT
Admiral
Posts: 608

Re: GALACTIC CONFLICT - New Guard Reserve #2 - Discussion Topic

Post#15 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:24 am

strawman3125 wrote:Everyone is going to interpret the leaderboards however they want... What I take from the leaderboards data is this: I counted the number of players with double digit defensive wins in the top 50 leaderboards for the 6 conflicts before GR SS came out and there were FAR MORE Rebels with double digits defensive wins than Imperials and that is still the case now, if anything the gap is widening.

I think the only thing that GR SS did was give the Rebels the morale boost required to get off of the dessert worlds and start competing on other worlds.

So my interpretation of the leaderboard data is that the Rebels had the defensive advantage before GR SS and now that they have GR SS, that advantage has only grown.


Boog wrote:The leaderboards don't show proof of anything. Rebels spent the last year whining about sniper GR, pouted and hid on Tatooine. They complained that they could no longer compete in conflicts, and that defense was impossible for them on any planets other than desert planets. None of this was true. During all that time, there were rebels racking up defensive wins on Hoth and on the forest planets. And there were rebels attacking on those planets and finishing in the top 50 of conflicts. But, the tired old story was that the devs were against the rebels and making it impossible for them to compete.

Then one day, a conflict for sharpshooter gr arrived, and all of a sudden rebels could compete on every planet. Lol! Nothing changed to improve their ability to attack, but suddenly they could (and did, and still do), and have been all over the leaderboards on all planets. This has nothing to do with sharpshooter gr. It just has to do with competing and not hiding like a bunch of pansies on Tatooine.


You both make good points and I admit I hadn't considered the effect of a morale boost. There will definitely be rebels who suddenly felt invincible and went for green to try farming defense wins. A lot of those same Rebels probably also had a reality check as it isn't quite as simple as turning on snipers and farming wins. :lol:

It will definitely play a part and makes the top50 a little iffy to use as a single argument.
However it matches my own experience (As well as those on Line and in my Squad) of greatly improved wins on all planets.

I will also point to the current meta. A very large amount of people trying to get wins in PVP is running snipers/bursts (/sonics).
It's simply that good, if it wasn't people would be running other things.
And as established, both bursts and sonics have clear disadvantages that can be exploited using other units. So why aren't those units seeing use? Part of that is that the hard counter to bursts only has skins on 1 planet.
The other part is that the other units that go with it just can't compete with the skinned (sniper) GR.
Then again, strawman makes a good point regarding buffed bursts melting buffed heavies.

strawman3125 wrote:I agree with those points. I would love to see the Hoth buff for Hails and MHCs on all worlds! Though that would not be a fix because of the issues that you mentioned, and the AI for the MHCs needs to be fixed as they seem to enjoy spending far too much time dancing on the spot rather than actually firing.

I have watched my buffed bursts melt Maxed out heavies with skins with 3+ maxed out healing droids healing them in less than a second... so they are not a solution...

Another powerful thing about the sonic burst combo is that you want to spread your jets/jumps out to avoid the sonics but you want to group them to take out the bursts meaning there is no great way to deploy against a well setup defense with both of them.

The heavies thing may be skin related.I have seen mine survive. But if maxed heavies can't survive maxed burst turrets then the hail/hmc is literally the only thing that can solve this problem.

Hails and HMCs always try to get a clear shot of their target and thus will try and move into a "better" position. Problem for the HMC's is that they're a big and slow unit so they bug out fairly quick especially as they have to recalculate their path each time a building is destroyed by a faster unit. I imagine they really don't synergize at all with skinned jet based loadouts.
The smaller and faster Hails meanwhile reach their target in time to park next to a different turret to shoot at their original target. :D

I really hope we get a galaxy wide buff to HMC's/Hails soon. I have high hopes that they will shake up the game again and may even break the snipers stranglehold on the game. Depending on how it's done I'm not even that worried about Imperials stacking that skin with the HMC GR either. The HMC is so slow moving I doubt that they're a gamebreaker with a 70% plus.
It barely works on Hoth and that's only because of the insane 300+ both Hails and HMCs get there. More than once have I destroyed a base while the frost HMC GR goes for a pleasant stroll along the edge. :lol:


One last thing, regarding the rebel defensive advantage.
I have long since been convinced that GR in general needs a nerf.
I even made a topic about it a long time ago, where I explained that I feared for the game as I was winning plenty of defenses even without Snipers GR and why imperials were clinging to Green and Rebels to desert.
While rebels have stronger jets everywhere, I assumed that for Imperials it was due to the overwhelming power/utility of the ATACT being the extra needed for the average Imperial to stand a decent chance against a well laid out Rebel base.
From my current vantage point it seems that in the face of the powerful SSS GR even the mighty ATACT is really starting to struggle.
Or maybe it isn't even the SSS GR, but it's been the power creep incurred by the slowly leveling other GR as I suggested back then.

I'm going to think about it some more, thank you for giving me something to think about.
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Shelendil
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Re: GALACTIC CONFLICT - New Guard Reserve #2 - Discussion Topic

Post#16 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:32 am

TNT wrote:From my current vantage point it seems that in the face of the powerful SSS GR even the mighty ATACT is really starting to struggle.


The SS GR is a detriment to the eATAT because it kills the spawning stormtroopers, leaving the eATAT naked to turrets that would otherwise be shooting at the shorter-range stormtroopers. It's very obvious in my replays. That one single unit can no longer plow through after everything else is dead.
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Shelendil
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Re: GALACTIC CONFLICT - New Guard Reserve #2 - Discussion Topic

Post#17 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:45 am

As for defensive wins, you have to consider the population imbalance. If there are two imps for one rebel, and everyone makes one (failed) attack, the rebel has 2 defensive wins, one imp has 1 defensive win, and one imp has 0 defensive wins. Of course smaller numbers of rebels are going to collect more defensive wins, as there are simply fewer rebels to spread them among.

The last time I did an analysis of defensive wins, the total number of imperial defensive wins were relatively EQUAL to the total number of rebel defensive wins, which means imperials were winning at a much higher rate than what should be expected from the population imbalance.

Going back to my example above, if imperials and rebels are gaining the same percentage of defenses per attack on them, then in absolute numbers an individual rebel would have 2x defenses while an individual imperial would have 0.5x defenses. Balance would look like an individual rebel having 4 times the defenses of an individual imperial entirely because of the population difference.

PS Nerf guard reserve
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strawman3125
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Re: GALACTIC CONFLICT - New Guard Reserve #2 - Discussion Topic

Post#18 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:37 am

Shelendil wrote:As for defensive wins, you have to consider the population imbalance. If there are two imps for one rebel, and everyone makes one (failed) attack, the rebel has 2 defensive wins, one imp has 1 defensive win, and one imp has 0 defensive wins. Of course smaller numbers of rebels are going to collect more defensive wins, as there are simply fewer rebels to spread them among.

The last time I did an analysis of defensive wins, the total number of imperial defensive wins were relatively EQUAL to the total number of rebel defensive wins, which means imperials were winning at a much higher rate than what should be expected from the population imbalance.

Going back to my example above, if imperials and rebels are gaining the same percentage of defenses per attack on them, then in absolute numbers an individual rebel would have 2x defenses while an individual imperial would have 0.5x defenses. Balance would look like an individual rebel having 4 times the defenses of an individual imperial entirely because of the population difference.

PS Nerf guard reserve


Love stats!

I am not sure where you are getting your stats from... KSOD indicates that Rebels make up for approximately 40% of the population which is only 10% less compared to the 2:1 that you mention. Also according to those stats, Rebels account for 60% of the defensive wins which is SIGNIFICANTLY better on a per player basis than the Imperials. Which is in line with the current, and last 4+ months, of top 50 conflict charts where the Rebels had far more players with double digit defensive wins than the imperials.

I am all for nerfing defense! But as I mentioned above I would much prefer to see the nerfs being to sonics and bursts which do far more damage that GR.

(It makes sense that Rebels are winning far more defenses given that their Jets do 65% more damage than Imperial Jumps and they have 28% more health, average those 2 out and that's a 45% attack advantage in shear damage per second and health. Said another way if: If Rebel player attacks an Imperial player with 20 Jets it is about the same as an Imperial player attacking a Rebel player with 29 Jumps, based on damage per second and health. From the Imperial perspective, I would love to give up GR S if Jets and Jumps were made exactly equal! So if any nerfing happens to defense it should maintain the overall balance, meaning that as long as the rebels have a 45% advantage in offence, Imperials should have a 45% advantage in defense.)


TNT
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Posts: 608

Re: GALACTIC CONFLICT - New Guard Reserve #2 - Discussion Topic

Post#19 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:47 am

Shelendil wrote:As for defensive wins, you have to consider the population imbalance. If there are two imps for one rebel, and everyone makes one (failed) attack, the rebel has 2 defensive wins, one imp has 1 defensive win, and one imp has 0 defensive wins. Of course smaller numbers of rebels are going to collect more defensive wins, as there are simply fewer rebels to spread them among.

The last time I did an analysis of defensive wins, the total number of imperial defensive wins were relatively EQUAL to the total number of rebel defensive wins, which means imperials were winning at a much higher rate than what should be expected from the population imbalance.

Going back to my example above, if imperials and rebels are gaining the same percentage of defenses per attack on them, then in absolute numbers an individual rebel would have 2x defenses while an individual imperial would have 0.5x defenses. Balance would look like an individual rebel having 4 times the defenses of an individual imperial entirely because of the population difference.

PS Nerf guard reserve


Good point do you know when you did this last time? Strawman beat me to pointing out the difference isn't quite that if we use KSOD, but it should have an influence.
Your point actually helps the argument that the Snipers are that strong. As those numbers are only showing up post SSS GR introduction.

I wholeheartedly agree with your PS. :)



Even if I don't agree with it, the rebel jet superiority made "sense" when the difference between GRs was as big as it originally was.
Following the multiple nerfs to the Sniper GR and now the introduction of the SS GR makes it a really big advantage for the Rebels.
Well, at least the Rebels that are able to participate in the conflict for them as access is restricted unlike Imperial access to the Sniper GR.

It really hammers home how badly they messed up the balance when they were first introduced.
They should've never been released or after release been nerfed into the ground thereby making the Jet superiority unneeded.

Oddly, the sudden fix of the Kessen bake time for the Rebels actually gives me hope that they may do something drastic and fix this mess in the proper way. (which is not haphazardly buffing units and hoping they add something) :)
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strawman3125
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Re: GALACTIC CONFLICT - New Guard Reserve #2 - Discussion Topic

Post#20 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:47 am

TNT wrote:Oddly, the sudden fix of the Kessen bake time for the Rebels actually gives me hope that they may do something drastic and fix this mess in the proper way. (which is not haphazardly buffing units and hoping they add something) :)


I hope that this is an indication that they are willing to make changes to make things better!

I am not sure why kessen ever had different cook times in the first place... unless the rebel version is somehow better, but I am not aware of any stat differences.

This particular fix is a benefit to my Rebel HQ 8 base as it can still fill the troop transports in less than 10 minutes but at level 10+ it is taking me longer than 10 minutes to fill my troop transports so it hardly matters if heros take 5 or 10 minutes, as the hero is not the holdup. Especially if I am attacking player bases (rather than easy dev bases) and I need to wait an hour or more for full air support.


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