Guard Reserve Discussion (leave snipers at the door)

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TNT
Major General
Posts: 373

Guard Reserve Discussion (leave snipers at the door)

Post#1 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:43 am

I've been walking around with this idea for a while now, but following my discussion with Plagiues I wanted to discuss this further.

First things first: leave Snipers Guard Reserve out of this discussion.

Are Light Infantry and Bruiser GR overpowered?
I am currently leaning towards the idea of: Yes, Light infantry and Bruisers are broken.

Reasons for thinking this:
Imperials attacking my base fail more often than not.
Even lvl10 coming after me (a lvl9) with multiple heal ships fail to get to 100% often only getting to 80-90%.

Imperials go to Green, why? Because of the ATACT. A massive beast that pops all shields in 1 hit and will oneshot nearly all buildings as well. So why do they need that advantage?
And yes, all things are equal for me on all planets and LVL10 Imperials on Green get 90-100% on me with the same loadout as on Tat. On my base, the ATACT makes a difference of around 10-20% in damage.

Interestingly, I see Imperials attack with more varied loadouts than I myself use. The interesting part however is that they perform roughly equal on my base as an all jets loadout without healships. (20-40%)
But the majority of the Imperials use the exact same loadout as rebels. Jets, Jets and maybe throw in some TX for flavor to finish things.

So what's killing them? Easy, my SC and my turrets.

On the Rebel side even if the imperials don't have Rodian GR activated, it's still not a cakewalk despite our stronger jets. (which is fine, things shouldn't be easy)

Thing is, after 5 seconds 12 troopers and 8 bruisers spawn. That's 20 targets that your units have to lock on, kill and reacquire a new target which slows down all units to a crawl. 30 seconds later, another 20 targets spawn. They may even deal some papercuts. Let's assume I'm stupid and I bring nothing but jets for an attack. That's my 15 jets against 20 targets, 20+ turrets, SC and another 20 targets after 30 seconds and another 20 targets after 30 more seconds unless you destroy the barracks. Yeah, no wonder everyone struggles on attack. You can't even bring enough air to kill everything even if you wanted to.
And that's ignoring the other GR's you can activate giving sonics ample time to recharge.

So why is it so hard to counter these weak unskinned guys?
I've played other games with GR, often they're even standard features everyone gets without going through the frag hoops. So why is it more manageable there?
1: Self preservation. In most of those other games your units will defend themselves when attacked. SWCommander units however are incredibly stupid. They will lock on a target location (not the actual target) and move there to attack. They will even keep walking there if the original target isn't there anymore. In addition, they absolutely must destroy a target before they will move to the next target. Said next target for a generalist being the closest thing so that doesn't even have to be the guy one pixel further that's shooting.
In most other games units will not walk miles to get rid of the guys shooting at them, but they will retarget if they're within range.
2: Wall bugs. How often have you seen an invincible guy hold up your army for 20 seconds because he happens to be on a stump and will not move?
3: Anti unit units, like the sniper and bikes are hit very hard by the stupid AI mentioned in point 1. You can bring a sniper along for the ride and he will perform pretty good at the start of the battle against a box layout. Up until you move past the walls. After that he's dead weight as he will invariably get stuck shooting wall stumps in an attempt to shoot a guy that isn't even behind said stump anymore and is currently shooting your sniper from point blank range. Hell, it's not even wall stumps. I've seen my snipers get stuck shooting a building that was in the way of the actual target.
Against a stump forest the snipers are immediately unusable.
4: Death march. All anti unit units are susceptible to the death march. I have never seen this behaviour in other games. The Death March is also caused by the anti unit units locking onto the target location instead of the actual moving target. I've even seen my units pass their targets before turning around and getting gunned down. :?

This is all part of the reason why Imperials and Rebels alike flock to the jets. They hit the hardest and are the fastest generalists in the game. In addition, they fly allowing them to ignore walls that exist to slow down other units as well. (and thus also the reason why Imps cower on green :P )

I think GR in general would be significantly better balanced if they were to fix either one or all of the above points.


tl:dr
Are Light Infantry and Bruiser GR overpowered?
I am currently leaning towards the idea of: Yes, Light infantry and Bruisers are broken.

Fixing this involves fixing the AI or buffing snipers to allow them to ignore walls/buildings but give them a massive nerf against structures.

This would in turn probably also make all other GR a lot better manageble.
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User avatar
Spirit
Commodore
Posts: 221

Re: Guard Reserve Discussion (leave snipers at the door)

Post#2 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:03 am

Not sure that light infantry and bruiser GR are gamechangers at the moment. There are many bigger issues and problems that need fixing first.
Player name Ghost. A level 10 Imperial hitman. Feel the force.


lc77
Captain
Posts: 87

Re: Guard Reserve Discussion (leave snipers at the door)

Post#3 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:08 am

Simple solution to all the mess.

Introduce a no armory planet. And as an incentive for Disney charge some crystals to unlock it, say a 1000. Some quick cash for them, and maybe some happy players.


Xinix
Major General
Posts: 267

Re: Guard Reserve Discussion (leave snipers at the door)

Post#4 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:53 am

Just some personal observations (lvl10):
- a base with full GR is easier to hundie than a base with a bit of GR + turret buffs
- not getting 100% by default is healthy for the game
- death march is stupid and should be eliminated

For attack:
- handling SC Jets/Togs is crucial: kill with Kessen or trigger&bait with Vader are only options ... fail = faceplant
- as a result: AT-ACT is great against dev bases (EZ no SC) but too weak against real bases (can't use it, unless SC turns out to be empty)
- you need to bring a generous mix of heal+strike air to clear a big base : get greedy and go in unprepared is a good recipe for failure/1 star only


rawrebel
Commodore
Posts: 205

Re: Guard Reserve Discussion (leave snipers at the door)

Post#5 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:08 am

Don't think the bruisers & light infantry are Op,not even when skinned,the right evaluation should be done at max levels.
I know we should leave alone snipers. Gr but not even them are Op,only when rodian skin is enabled they became a problem.
I play also with a lv9 imp account ,maxed ,and currently upg to 10, facing lv9/10 reb real bases ,only problem i have in attack is when i go unprepaired and without full load,and then i get 1/2 stars ,as heroes i still prefer Kessen,then Ac-Act...rebel habit.
One rule i never miss on a live base is to handle the Sc,either by sniping or baiting.The rest is all routine,whatever gr came is only a speedbump.
As rebel the things are very different,being max10 i rarely find a live base without rodian snipers,when i run into one with skinned infantry and bruisers ,well,i have to say is a cakewalk,maybe because is expect the worse and i'm allways prepaired for that.
What i see from failed attacks on my rebel base is players that don't have any strategy on attack,dump all and wait ,that is the tipical approach on devbases but never work on a well developed real base.
When i get attacked by a player who know what he is doing then is all over,nothing will stop him from 1/2 stars,not even tauntans,CWHails,jets or sully snipers,in whatever combination they are.
So i think those 2 Gr are definetly not OP,they are easy to deal with if a player know his stuff.


Plagueis
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1380

Re: Guard Reserve Discussion (leave snipers at the door)

Post#6 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:13 pm

I think guard reserve equipment regardless of faction is equally effective. It just depends on how they’re applied. Currently, imps do have the advantage when it comes to damaging enemy units with guard reserve. That doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the best strategy and will work effectively in all scenarios. A safer strategy is to “flood” the battlefield with GR troops and use the attacking units’ weakness against themselves, that being their AI, range and RoF. A great example yet again, is Decepticon from _NAMELESS_. Fantastic defense that uses that “flood” defense to great success. I’ve asked his squadies and according to them, his tauntauns and GR are not maxed. A testament to how powerful this strategy can be, which also happens to he available to both factions and can even work to some degree against buffed jets. We all want to use the best tools available to us even if they’re actually only marginally better than other options and I think that’s why most imps do go the GR snipe/rodian route. Of course there’s a tradeoff with every choice and having your entire defense of four units lured away is a big one.


VRB
Squadron Leader
Posts: 22

Re: Guard Reserve Discussion (leave snipers at the door)

Post#7 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:56 pm

TNT wrote:2: Wall bugs. How often have you seen an invincible guy hold up your army for 20 seconds because he happens to be on a stump and will not move?
3: Anti unit units, like the sniper and bikes are hit very hard by the stupid AI mentioned in point 1. You can bring a sniper along for the ride and he will perform pretty good at the start of the battle against a box layout. Up until you move past the walls. After that he's dead weight as he will invariably get stuck shooting wall stumps in an attempt to shoot a guy that isn't even behind said stump anymore and is currently shooting your sniper from point blank range. Hell, it's not even wall stumps. I've seen my snipers get stuck shooting a building that was in the way of the actual target.
Against a stump forest the snipers are immediately unusable.

Funny thing is some years ago they fixed the troop wall issue troops would walk around walls stumps or move to the closest opening instead of the mindless shooting at them. Unfortunately that was short lived some 3/4 months later after a update it was just gone back to the same old lame must kill this wall piece while i get shot in the face crap. Your post is spot on the AI in this game have always been horrible and fixing it is a game changers. People who dismiss this issue as minimal have not been playing this game for years and seen the downward spiral that is this game.


Plagueis
Grand Admiral
Posts: 1380

Re: Guard Reserve Discussion (leave snipers at the door)

Post#8 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:44 pm

Some prime examples of really bad AI specifically on the imp side are snipes, ongidae, at-at, at-dp and mhcs. An honorable mention for dumbest unit goes to kubaz for running along the map edge because there’s a break in a wall two miles away.


User avatar
SFOne
Commodore
Posts: 101

Re: Guard Reserve Discussion (leave snipers at the door)

Post#9 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:44 pm

Hah, gotta +1 on that honourable mention for the Kubaz/Infil AI.

It's a tough one. Many of us here want a challenge to keep it interesting, but I believe the stats show that when attacking is easiest, that's when the revenue is highest.

I like the different roles each unit plays - it forces you to think about how and where to deploy them, but agree some of the AI/pathing is just plain dumb.

Are these GR OP? I don't think so. Any base I find without rodian skin enabled, even with other threats such as skinned regs and jets/jumps are easy to hundie and often without SC or much air.

I'm gonna throw this out there that I think it is pretty equally difficult for both factions right now. Different experiences and reasons behind the difficulty, but I don't see one side rolling over the other with ease.

Issues I see:
1. Disparity between offensive and defensive equipment is making it too hard for casual players to win consistently, without SC and air.
2. Loot shortage caused by many playing the defensive game (I was in the top 50 on Erkit for a good while just from defences this week). I could be wrong about this!
3. Nothing new and shiny. Things have gotten to a point where things are probably about balanced, but we've all endured months of BS to get to that point, and there's nothing new to show for it.

I've dipped my feet into other freemium games, but this is the only one I've immersed myself in this deep. Perhaps other games are the same, but I think we all take it too seriously sometimes. Maybe it's because it's Star Wars and we all really care about that.
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DarkRebel
Admiral
Posts: 765

Re: Guard Reserve Discussion (leave snipers at the door)

Post#10 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:46 am

I used to hate stupid units, bad AI, when I first played the game.
Not any more.

If all the units were all smart and doing everything by themselves, then where does the "player" come in ? So a player simply macro-load his troop and dump units on the map and automatically win a battle ?

What's next ? troops run away from snipers or hide behind buildings when being shot at ? eATAT would take out rockets on its way to the shield within its 10 tile range radius, or take a step back when a rocket about to fire ? Jumps/jets automatically scatter when a sonic is about to unload ?

Rather than blaming the bad AI, we should try to learn each unit's AI, strength and weakness so that we deploy them properly, and build a diverse load so that troops can support each other. Things like clearing a path, screening, are all part of the deployment skills that a player need to learn. On defense, study the opponent unit AI and design your base to exploit them.

Game becomes much easier the more you understand how each unit works.


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