Guard Reserve - How Best To Use - Discussion Thread

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geoman48
Major General
Posts: 271

Re: Guard Reserve - How Best To Use - Discussion Thread

Post#131 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:30 pm

darthdoodie wrote:I think we are at a happy medium now, so lets put this to bed please?


I second the motion. Opposed? No, the motion passes. This will now be put to bed forevermore. If only. :D
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ObiTwo
Commodore
Posts: 118

Re: Guard Reserve - How Best To Use - Discussion Thread

Post#132 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:23 pm

Boog wrote:Buffed jets with 53% more damage than buffed jumps isn't exactly fair, either.


Jumps fire faster. In testing a single jump kills an equivalent level jet if they target each other around the same time. The damage difference is to try and balance the faster fire rate.

Re Vans vs Snipes, nope not equal, vans target mech (you're all spamming jumps), snipes target infantry (i.e. jets). Sure many rebels have learned to deal with them, the game is mostly playable for the rebel faction again, we adapted to the massive disparity. It doesn't make it equal.

I have formulated a GR strategy, I don't use them at all.
http://youtube.com/ObiTwo (tips, strategies and layouts for rebels)


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RyIke
Commander
Posts: 43

Re: Guard Reserve - How Best To Use - Discussion Thread

Post#133 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:04 pm

Ok so need some advice to help my defense game (Empire Player).

Currently I rest on Hoth and I use the Guard Reserve: Anti-Vehicle with the Cold Weather Heavy Cannon Skin, Anti-Infantry with the Rodian Sniper Skin and have one slot left for either the stormtrooper or dewback Guard Reserve. Sadly all my guard reserves are at level 3 now.

For other planets I am in more of a dilemma, I use the Guard Reserve: Stormtrooper and Sniper with both armory buffs and I have tried the Speeder Bike Guard Reserve but to me, it seems like they are worthless.
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Plagueis
Admiral
Posts: 981

Re: Guard Reserve - How Best To Use - Discussion Thread

Post#134 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:20 pm

ObiTwo wrote:
Boog wrote:Buffed jets with 53% more damage than buffed jumps isn't exactly fair, either.


Jumps fire faster. In testing a single jump kills an equivalent level jet if they target each other around the same time. The damage difference is to try and balance the faster fire rate.

Re Vans vs Snipes, nope not equal, vans target mech (you're all spamming jumps), snipes target infantry (i.e. jets). Sure many rebels have learned to deal with them, the game is mostly playable for the rebel faction again, we adapted to the massive disparity. It doesn't make it equal.

I have formulated a GR strategy, I don't use them at all.


I would laugh if this wasn’t so frustrating.

Ok, so if I lure SC jets to a corner and ambush them along the way with an equal amount of jumps, why then are they able to not only turn around and kill every jump but have at least half of their numbers left to maul the rest of my attack? This is against lvl 10 jumps with lvl 7 skins and it’s pretty consistent from base to base. I have to use a kubaz or Vader to distract or I will lose literally every jump sometimes if I don’t. I doubt that many rebels have lvl 8+ jet skins either. Buffed jets are FAR nastier jumps. If they weren’t, nearly every imp would be running jumps in their SC just like rebels do now with jets.

Vans vs. snipes is not an apples to apples comparison when considering what these units are trying to stop. Sure, GR snipes do more damage than vans, but it’s against a horde of fast flying jets with a ton of health and damage. It’s practically a necessity as buffed jets are more effective than jumps against everything else in a base including other defensive aspects like turrets, shields and SC troops. But, guard reserve is very easy to counter as you mentioned, further reducing the amount of time snipes have to be so “OP”. You’re ignoring how a faster moving attack reduces the effectiveness of guard reserve as they have less chance to spawn after the intial luring. Imp jumps do less damage which means it takes longer for them to wade through a base and guard reserve. For imps, luring high level GR can very easily mean a loss simply because even decent level jumps and at-act can’t mow through a flood of infantry before the next wave comes. Luring especially allows those “weak” vans to stack as they outrange banthas and regs and do splash damage to jumps that tend to clump together soon after deployment.

These are just my observations as a high level imp player, playing the game and not focusing on damage stats, especially when going after max 10 rebel bases from top 50 squads to steal their 30k+ CB. Many lvl 10 rebels know their stuff and if I used the same strategy that most rebels typically use against my base, I would lose every time. I absolutely cannot bring 17+ jumps and no air and expect to at least 2-Star a built lvl 10 rebel base even after kessen sniping the SC. It’s tough even with air, running Lord Vader and kubaz to “time” sonics, which also reduces the number of jumps I can bring. Many rebels aren’t having this issue even against my lvl 8-9 GR including lvl 6 rodian skins for the snipes, so hell yes, buffed jets are better.


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ObiTwo
Commodore
Posts: 118

Re: Guard Reserve - How Best To Use - Discussion Thread

Post#135 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:11 pm

ObiTwo wrote:
Boog wrote:Buffed jets with 53% more damage than buffed jumps isn't exactly fair, either.


Jumps fire faster. In testing a single jump kills an equivalent level jet if they target each other around the same time. The damage difference is to try and balance the faster fire rate.

Re Vans vs Snipes, nope not equal, vans target mech (you're all spamming jumps), snipes target infantry (i.e. jets). Sure many rebels have learned to deal with them, the game is mostly playable for the rebel faction again, we adapted to the massive disparity. It doesn't make it equal.

I have formulated a GR strategy, I don't use them at all.


Plagueis wrote:I would laugh if this wasn’t so frustrating.

Ok, so if I lure SC jets to a corner and ambush them along the way with an equal amount of jumps, why then are they able to not only turn around and kill every jump but have at least half of their numbers left to maul the rest of my attack? This is against lvl 10 jumps with lvl 7 skins and it’s pretty consistent from base to base. I have to use a kubaz or Vader to distract or I will lose literally every jump sometimes if I don’t. I doubt that many rebels have lvl 8+ jet skins either. Buffed jets are FAR nastier jumps. If they weren’t, nearly every imp would be running jumps in their SC just like rebels do now with jets.


There are two simple answers:

1. You are doing it wrong, I don't really want to help you improve at killing rebels though, but many top imperial players know exactly how to do this.

2. Attack units are dropped one at a time and target the closest jet. They may or may not target the same jet and they may or may not fire in synchronization. Both can spread the attack damage through the group of jets and drastically change the time to kill. The jets however are grouped, moving as one and will typically target one jump kill it and re-target, rather than spreading damage around. Time to death is crucial. It means they go from 5 vs 5 to 5 (some partially injured) vs 4 and so on, and can decimate a large group quickly if the attack is not carried out correctly (See point 1 above).

If you wanted to compare apples with apples, you would need to drop an equivalent number of jumps so they go after a building some distance away as one group, giving you time to bait out the jets so the two groups converge and target around the same time. Of course this is not practical in clearing a base or taking on sonics. But it is one way to fairly compare one vs the other in larger numbers. Having said that, if you are good at baiting, just as rebels can, imps can get jets to lock on a distant target and kill them enroute. There is no real difference between the units at all, fire rate more than makes up for the extra damage.

Plagueis wrote:Vans vs. snipes is not an apples to apples comparison when considering what these units are trying to stop. Sure, GR snipes do more damage than vans, but it’s against a horde of fast flying jets with a ton of health and damage. It’s practically a necessity as buffed jets are more effective than jumps against everything else in a base including other defensive aspects like turrets, shields and SC troops. But, guard reserve is very easy to counter as you mentioned, further reducing the amount of time snipes have to be so “OP”. You’re ignoring how a faster moving attack reduces the effectiveness of guard reserve as they have less chance to spawn after the intial luring. Imp jumps do less damage which means it takes longer for them to wade through a base and guard reserve. For imps, luring high level GR can very easily mean a loss simply because even decent level jumps and at-act can’t mow through a flood of infantry before the next wave comes. Luring especially allows those “weak” vans to stack as they outrange banthas and regs and do splash damage to jumps that tend to clump together soon after deployment.


Faster moving attack? What? Jets and Jump have the exact same speed, 40. They are, as I pointed out, almost exactly the same, additionally, both factions are spamming large numbers for almost all attacks. So while some of your points would be valid if the factions used traditional loadouts (mainly infantry for rebels vs mainly mech for imps), the fact that both factions are using very large numbers of infantry (jets and jumps) completely negates your argument. The imperial side has GR that targets and is biased towards killing infantry. The rebel faction has GR that targets and is biased towards killing mech.

As we have negated the faster attack argument, that also negates the "wading through" the vast horde of rebel GR units, since both sides are popping out units equally. The barracks generates 3,2,1 and vehicle 1,1 on both sides. The main difference you are referring to is the fact that the rebel players are electing to use quantity (3 rebel troopers) for example over quality (1 vanguard) because our quality unit is useless in comparison to a sniper which most imperial players elect to use as GR unit (buffed). Effectively your wading through so many GR units argument is highlighting the disparity in the best units for each faction. :)

Plagueis wrote:These are just my observations as a high level imp player, playing the game and not focusing on damage stats, especially when going after max 10 rebel bases from top 50 squads to steal their 30k+ CB. Many lvl 10 rebels know their stuff and if I used the same strategy that most rebels typically use against my base, I would lose every time. I absolutely cannot bring 17+ jumps and no air and expect to at least 2-Star a built lvl 10 rebel base even after kessen sniping the SC. It’s tough even with air, running Lord Vader and kubaz to “time” sonics, which also reduces the number of jumps I can bring. Many rebels aren’t having this issue even against my lvl 8-9 GR including lvl 6 rodian skins for the snipes, so hell yes, buffed jets are better.


Many top imperial players are using Kessen to snipe SC and spam jumps, using that exact strategy. One of them even shared a stack of attack screen shots showing his builds vs many top 50 rebels, and it was all spam, little air, 3 stars. Conversely you would be very hard pressed to find rebels easily accounting for well designed imperial bases with high level GR snipers without using air or SC.

One last point about a GR difference, the imperial Squad Centre snipers often blend in with GR snipers. Our jets stand out. Subtle but important.
http://youtube.com/ObiTwo (tips, strategies and layouts for rebels)


Plagueis
Admiral
Posts: 981

Re: Guard Reserve - How Best To Use - Discussion Thread

Post#136 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:02 am

ObiTwo wrote:
ObiTwo wrote:
Boog wrote:Buffed jets with 53% more damage than buffed jumps isn't exactly fair, either.


Jumps fire faster. In testing a single jump kills an equivalent level jet if they target each other around the same time. The damage difference is to try and balance the faster fire rate.

Re Vans vs Snipes, nope not equal, vans target mech (you're all spamming jumps), snipes target infantry (i.e. jets). Sure many rebels have learned to deal with them, the game is mostly playable for the rebel faction again, we adapted to the massive disparity. It doesn't make it equal.

I have formulated a GR strategy, I don't use them at all.


Plagueis wrote:I would laugh if this wasn’t so frustrating.

Ok, so if I lure SC jets to a corner and ambush them along the way with an equal amount of jumps, why then are they able to not only turn around and kill every jump but have at least half of their numbers left to maul the rest of my attack? This is against lvl 10 jumps with lvl 7 skins and it’s pretty consistent from base to base. I have to use a kubaz or Vader to distract or I will lose literally every jump sometimes if I don’t. I doubt that many rebels have lvl 8+ jet skins either. Buffed jets are FAR nastier jumps. If they weren’t, nearly every imp would be running jumps in their SC just like rebels do now with jets.


There are two simple answers:

1. You are doing it wrong, I don't really want to help you improve at killing rebels though, but many top imperial players know exactly how to do this.

2. Attack units are dropped one at a time and target the closest jet. They may or may not target the same jet and they may or may not fire in synchronization. Both can spread the attack damage through the group of jets and drastically change the time to kill. The jets however are grouped, moving as one and will typically target one jump kill it and re-target, rather than spreading damage around. Time to death is crucial. It means they go from 5 vs 5 to 5 (some partially injured) vs 4 and so on, and can decimate a large group quickly if the attack is not carried out correctly (See point 1 above).

If you wanted to compare apples with apples, you would need to drop an equivalent number of jumps so they go after a building some distance away as one group, giving you time to bait out the jets so the two groups converge and target around the same time. Of course this is not practical in clearing a base or taking on sonics. But it is one way to fairly compare one vs the other in larger numbers. Having said that, if you are good at baiting, just as rebels can, imps can get jets to lock on a distant target and kill them enroute. There is no real difference between the units at all, fire rate more than makes up for the extra damage.

Plagueis wrote:Vans vs. snipes is not an apples to apples comparison when considering what these units are trying to stop. Sure, GR snipes do more damage than vans, but it’s against a horde of fast flying jets with a ton of health and damage. It’s practically a necessity as buffed jets are more effective than jumps against everything else in a base including other defensive aspects like turrets, shields and SC troops. But, guard reserve is very easy to counter as you mentioned, further reducing the amount of time snipes have to be so “OP”. You’re ignoring how a faster moving attack reduces the effectiveness of guard reserve as they have less chance to spawn after the intial luring. Imp jumps do less damage which means it takes longer for them to wade through a base and guard reserve. For imps, luring high level GR can very easily mean a loss simply because even decent level jumps and at-act can’t mow through a flood of infantry before the next wave comes. Luring especially allows those “weak” vans to stack as they outrange banthas and regs and do splash damage to jumps that tend to clump together soon after deployment.


Faster moving attack? What? Jets and Jump have the exact same speed, 40. They are, as I pointed out, almost exactly the same, additionally, both factions are spamming large numbers for almost all attacks. So while some of your points would be valid if the factions used traditional loadouts (mainly infantry for rebels vs mainly mech for imps), the fact that both factions are using very large numbers of infantry (jets and jumps) completely negates your argument. The imperial side has GR that targets and is biased towards killing infantry. The rebel faction has GR that targets and is biased towards killing mech.

As we have negated the faster attack argument, that also negates the "wading through" the vast horde of rebel GR units, since both sides are popping out units equally. The barracks generates 3,2,1 and vehicle 1,1 on both sides. The main difference you are referring to is the fact that the rebel players are electing to use quantity (3 rebel troopers) for example over quality (1 vanguard) because our quality unit is useless in comparison to a sniper which most imperial players elect to use as GR unit (buffed). Effectively your wading through so many GR units argument is highlighting the disparity in the best units for each faction. :)

Plagueis wrote:These are just my observations as a high level imp player, playing the game and not focusing on damage stats, especially when going after max 10 rebel bases from top 50 squads to steal their 30k+ CB. Many lvl 10 rebels know their stuff and if I used the same strategy that most rebels typically use against my base, I would lose every time. I absolutely cannot bring 17+ jumps and no air and expect to at least 2-Star a built lvl 10 rebel base even after kessen sniping the SC. It’s tough even with air, running Lord Vader and kubaz to “time” sonics, which also reduces the number of jumps I can bring. Many rebels aren’t having this issue even against my lvl 8-9 GR including lvl 6 rodian skins for the snipes, so hell yes, buffed jets are better.


Many top imperial players are using Kessen to snipe SC and spam jumps, using that exact strategy. One of them even shared a stack of attack screen shots showing his builds vs many top 50 rebels, and it was all spam, little air, 3 stars. Conversely you would be very hard pressed to find rebels easily accounting for well designed imperial bases with high level GR snipers without using air or SC.

One last point about a GR difference, the imperial Squad Centre snipers often blend in with GR snipers. Our jets stand out. Subtle but important.


1. I know how to corner lure just fine and get all of my jumps to attack the same jet at a time. They still get out damaged, hence the need to twirl Vader or drop a kubaz and that’s if I don’t run kessen to deal with the SC that way. My jumps even get out damaged when they flood out of my SC to meet a swarm of spread out jets which shouldn’t be possible with your explanation but lo and behold, it happens consistently. It’s why I and many other imps run rodians in our SCs instead.

When I say faster moving attack, I’m not just referring to unit movement speed. Higher damage units can destroy things faster, allowing them to progress through a base faster than units that do less damage. Jets get a larger buff than jumps and It’s a lot easier to wade through guard reserve when there is less time for them to have a chance to spawn before the barracks are reached and destroyed. Another thing to consider is how long it takes to lure and kill 4 GR snipes (rodian skin equipped) vs. 12 regs (buffed). Neither are dealing damage, but imps have 8 extra targets to get through before destroying buildings, which does make a difference in the time it takes before guard reserve structures can be neutralized. The true strength of guard reserve isn’t in dealing damage to kill enemy units, it’s strength is slowing down an attack so that turrets and SC troops can do the job. After the nerf, we saw imps that were swapping out snipes for other GR options and were still having good results on defense, so the real effectiveness of GR snipes post nerf is debatable vs simply increasing the GR volume, even with dewbacks. When imps run snipes, there is less GR to contend with in the first wave, typically through luring, which means rebels also have the luxury of getting their jets onto base structures faster than jumps after killing 4 units. This translates into more of the base that can be destroyed before the second wave of GR spawns and becomes an issue...if the barracks aren’t destroyed in the process. I have to spread my barracks around my base because a typical jet attack will reach them no matter how deep I bury them in my base. I simply can’t do the same thing with jumps.

Onto that subject...I like to think my base is designed ok as I win a decent amount of defenses albeit in the 35-45% range and mainly due to attackers lumping their jets together and expecting to roll through level 10 sonics (I’ve changed it recently to a sonic/rapid mix). My GR rodians aren’t doing anything defense-wise until about 30% of my base is destroyed and that’s if there are at least 2 barracks under shields that are still up and running. My base really is not all that different from a lot of top rebel or imp bases out there as knowledge and experience tends to distill into a similar format. That being said, I’m not getting anywhere near the same results with 17+ jumps and a few t-5s as rebels are getting against my base with 17+ jets and a few landseers, even with an identical attack strategy and despite the fact that I have decent level guard reserve snipes with rodian skins. I’m not getting rolled too often but when I duplicate the exact same attack and see results that are typically 10-15% less in base destruction, it makes me wonder. Enemy SC composition isn’t a factor in this either as it’s being kessened right off the bat. In theory I should be seeing better results as you explain that the jet buff is offset by a lower rate of fire and the fact that I’m not dealing with GR snipes. And this isn’t a lack of experience or tactics. I frequently attack and 3-Star rebels from top 50 squads, but none of those wins are achieved with a spammy 17+ flier attack. It just doesn’t work against a well designed base without a full load of med ships to support it and IMO, any attack that can’t be repeated in under 20 minutes is not very competitive.

From what i’m experiencing, having a stronger generalist flier outweighs any impact that a handful of easily countered defensive units can make and I would gladly give up GR snipes to balance jet and jump buffs.


Shelendil
Admiral
Posts: 580

Re: Guard Reserve - How Best To Use - Discussion Thread

Post#137 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:34 am

Sure. You'll also have to give up your better rapid turrets, your more damaging sniper modifier, and your more damaging bikes.
ShadyRebels24
You know you wanna be shady ;)


Plagueis
Admiral
Posts: 981

Re: Guard Reserve - How Best To Use - Discussion Thread

Post#138 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 am

Shelendil wrote:Sure. You'll also have to give up your better rapid turrets, your more damaging sniper modifier, and your more damaging bikes.


Sure. I’ll just run more sonics/rockets/bursts and fill my SC with better jumps. There are plenty of rebels in conflicts with loads of defensive wins, so obviously it wouldn’t be much of a trade off and maybe even an upgrade. I didn’t use bikes anyways because there’s no point in using SC units that can be nuked from the air like rodians, but do less damage.


Xinix
Commodore
Posts: 194

Re: Guard Reserve - How Best To Use - Discussion Thread

Post#139 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:32 am

I tried to use buffed jumps in my SC, but they got murdered too fast by the jets (maybe taking out 3-4, unless the jets are focussing on something else). Conversely if I see SC jets on my attack I HAVE to use Vader or Kubaz as decoys (+Tie Strikers to thin out the GR spam on the ground) ... otherwise I lose half my troops or worse. And I cannot concentrate enough firepower from my jumps, 'cause then they bunch up too much and get fried by the sonic farms. Still: no problem to handle with proper timings, spread deployment and sonic baits ... as long as I can trigger the SC early enough.

For me on defense the only thing that works is SC Rodians with a medic and buffed rapids ... but that works really well indeed, provided my SC is not triggered easily. GR sometimes helps a bit, but is usually easily lured to a corner and killed without ever shooting back.

Recently I saw a rebel trend to use Togs as superior sharpshooters ... got me good a few times when I did not recognise them between the rest of the rebel GR flood. But like everything on the ground: spot, bait, and sprinkle generously with air.


Boog
Admiral
Posts: 545

Re: Guard Reserve - How Best To Use - Discussion Thread

Post#140 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:37 am

I have found that Kessen plus a couple rodians and an astromed can save my ass when buffed jets appear. Just drop some storms in between Kessen and the jets to slow them a second or two, and they'll get killed fast most of the time.


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